The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Wheelgun Dunn on August 25, 2009, 12:26:25 PM
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What is a reasonable expectation for accuracy from a rimfire rifle? .22LR? .22MWR? .17Mach2? .17 HMR? Let's assume a distance of 50 yds. and that you have found a good quality ammo in a factory barrel. We have always lived by the 1 MOA law with most rifles. Is this reaonable to expect from a rimfire? I know all ammo/rifles are not created equal so I understand that, but what is a reasonable expectation? What have you experienced? Thanks!
Wheelgun
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I would expect to be able to keep all shots in 1 inch at 50 yards, depending on your eyesight with iron sights and tighter with optics.
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Here is the page from the NRA rule book for Small Bore Rifle.
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/SBR/sbr-w04.pdf (http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/SBR/sbr-w04.pdf)
Gives you an idea what is expected. My .22s shoot way better then I. ;D
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"After the gun was sighted-in at 50 yards in a test tunnel, the first four 5-shot groups measured .191, .202, .263 and .260 inches, for an average of .229 inches. Yep, that's less than a quarter-inch! More remarkable is the fact that these tiny groups were fired with standard Remington/Eley ammo and an old lot of CCI Green Tag, neither of which are considered the ne plus ultra by accuracy fanatics. The smallest group of all was fired by team member Sam Arnett, who demonstrated his award-winning benchrest technique with a barely measurable .109 inches. By comparison, an eighth of an inch equals .125 inches, so go figure."
http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/gear/shooting/2008/06/gun-test-08?photo=6#41789783
As good as any centerfire at that range. It's usually more about the shooter than the gun.
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I've been to small bore matches where guys are punching what would be one hole groups* at 100 meters all day long.
* These aren't true one hole groups, because in small bore you have a different target for each shot. However, they are taking the "x" out of every target!
The most common brand at most of these matches have been Anschutz ($1,000), but I have seen a lot of older Wnchesters and Savages of all eras.
I'm thinking that you could take a new Savage Mark I (under $350) and expect sub 1 moa.
http://www.savagearms.com/markifvt.htm (http://www.savagearms.com/markifvt.htm)
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Depends on how much you want to spend and what you want out of it. If you like to tinker with firearms and don't mind spendeing the money, you can get the results some have mentioned above.
You can do a lot with a Ruger 10/22 with out haveing to put a whole lot of $ into it if you like to tinker. I have seen some out standing 10/22s that didn't have a lot of money into them. Often just putting on a differant stock and making sure the barrel is seated properly and relieved in the stock can work wonders.
Lot's of tips and teckniques. It's amazing what some of the people are doing here:
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=167
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/
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Here's a question!
How does one shoot a group that is smaller than the bullet diameter?
???
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Here's a question!
How does one shoot a group that is smaller than the bullet diameter?
???
Got 'em!
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Here's a question!
How does one shoot a group that is smaller than the bullet diameter?
???
Minute of angle is measured at the center point of impact. In a perfect world, with perfect ammo, and with a perfect gun minute of angle would be zero. However, we are not in a perfect world, so we measure the circle formed by the imaginary dots representing the center of the hit, and that circumference is the moa when adjusted for 100 yards - 2" circumference at 50 yards is a 4" moa, 2" circumference at 200 yards is a 1" moa, etc.
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Thanks Mike.
So they actually measure the hole with a vernier, calculate the radius and determine centerpoint of hit. Makes sense to me! In these cases, they measured the deviation from centerpoint of "X"!
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An easier way to digest it is, measure the group outside to outside to the farthest point, subtract one bullet diameter.
Example: group outside to outside 1" projectile .452 1" - .452" = .548" center to center.
MOA is 1/60 of a degree at a given distance, dangerously close to 1", 1.047197508733" to be exact, at 100 yards, close enough for me, works out to about 10 1/2" at 1,000 yards.
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thanks Benny....
.047 is HUGE in my business. I was measuring parts today to .0005" ( 5 ten-thousands)....we got a new toy at the shop in the last few weeks. A 4 kilowatt laser center capable of repeatable cutting of .001 over the 12 foot cutting area! Right now it's brandy spanky new so it's really tight...
Fun stuff...
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But can you shoot a squirrel out of a tree with it at a hundred yards?
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But can you shoot a squirrel out of a tree with it at a hundred yards?
In forty years of hunting, I've never needed to shoot more than twenty yards for small game, maybe thirty or forty for pheasant! Accuracy is relative to the need and I don't need to be that accurate.
If your talking about the laser, it weighs about 50,000 pounds, a little hard to shoulder!
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But can you shoot a squirrel out of a tree with it at a hundred yards?
You've got a good spotter. ::)
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I once killed a griz at 1100yds with my grandpappys old singleshot .22. Does that count? :P
Anybody have a problem with changing BM's name to Gecko? ;D
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I once killed a griz at 1100yds with my grandpappys old singleshot .22. Does that count? :P
Junkie, your a stud! Hope ya didn't wreck the meat with that shot! It's a shame to waste a good Griz steak!
;D
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Junkie, your a stud! Hope ya didn't wreck the meat with that shot! It's a shame to waste a good Griz steak!
;D
I intentionally shot it in the paw so I could catch it and take it clean with my swiss army knife. No meat wasted at all. 8)
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I intentionally shot it in the paw so I could catch it and take it clean with my swiss army knife. No meat wasted at all. 8)
Well, Hell! If ya had the McGyver, why'd ya waste the bullet!
:)
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[and getting back to the original question]
Here's a target from last week. Not a $1000 Anschutz, just a CZ452 Varmint in .17M2 at 50yds.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/alfsauve/Targets/Target082109B.png)
I shot this in order of Upper Right, LR, LL, and UL. There are 5 shots in each group. It almost pulled together in a one hole group there at the end.
I do not apologize for having a 5-15x Bushnell Legend on this gun. It's in no way too much magnification when you're "hunting" mouse sized varmints hiding in vegetation. And, on the range, I don't need a spotting scope. Plus, it's absolutely a hoot to have other people sit down with my gun and realize how much their heartbeat plays into 100yard (or longer) shots. Of course, one young whipper-snapper said that wasn't a problem with his gun, since he only had a 4x scope! ;)
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If you don't HIT the paper you have enough magnification to set the target on fire and burn up the evidence ;D
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even something like a less then 150 bolt gun from savage or marlin will shoot under a inch at 50 yds. its just amatter of finding the right ammo for it. I've seen lots of $1000+ 10/22 that will shoot bigger groups then the a 120 savage right out of the box.
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Here is my plug for the 17HMR. I spent some time with my Dads Henry Golden Boy in 17hmr and fell in love. At 50 yards with Iron sights in teh prone with no rests or bags I was hittin about 2" groups. I can imagine a scope, bbenchrest, and good ammo could cut that in half. Now that I have shot that gun which is no long range varm rifle...i want to shoot a 17HMR made for killin groundhogs at long distances. This round is slowly becoming one of my favorites.
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.17HMR - A friend and I went out with his new .17 bolt gun, he'd just got it sighted in at the range with a nice Nikon scope that went up to something like 16X, and we were just out for some shooting / squirrel and rodent hunting. After listening to his tales of how amazingly flat shooting it was for 20 minutes, and our not seeing anything, he decided to drop a crow off the top of a telephone pole about 20 yards in front of us. I saw a poof of feathers from the center of the bird, and we watched it fly away! He quickly tried to quench my laughter with shooting at another crow in the top of a tree (bout 40 yards this time). I didnt see feathers fly, but the crow kinda fell off the limb. Before he TOOK FLIGHT! Both flew well away out of eye sight! Later in the day he''d shot three chipmunks in all. One we couldnt find (ran away?), one was still alive and struggling to crawl away with a hole in his neck, and one was a clean kill with a heart shot.
I think it was about 3 weeks before he was telling me about trading that rifle in on an Anschutze .22. He'd done more hunting with the .17HMR, and the results were much the same as our trip together.
Cant help but notice a good number of very nice looking .17 caliber rifles on the used rack everytime I visit shops.
They DO look good on a ballistics chart. Guess it just depends what your using it for.
He DID also have tales of blowing apart a ground hogs head with the .17 before getting rid of it. :-\
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Now these are some squirrel guns. Wish I had even one quarter this talent.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295026
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Now these are some squirrel guns. Wish I had even one qurter this talent.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295026
WOW!! :o
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Yeah, WOW!
That man has SKILLS! Beutiful work!
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.17HMR - A friend and I went out with his new .17 bolt gun, he'd just got it sighted in at the range with a nice Nikon scope that went up to something like 16X, and we were just out for some shooting / squirrel and rodent hunting. After listening to his tales of how amazingly flat shooting it was for 20 minutes, and our not seeing anything, he decided to drop a crow off the top of a telephone pole about 20 yards in front of us. I saw a poof of feathers from the center of the bird, and we watched it fly away! He quickly tried to quench my laughter with shooting at another crow in the top of a tree (bout 40 yards this time). I didnt see feathers fly, but the crow kinda fell off the limb. Before he TOOK FLIGHT! Both flew well away out of eye sight! Later in the day he''d shot three chipmunks in all. One we couldnt find (ran away?), one was still alive and struggling to crawl away with a hole in his neck, and one was a clean kill with a heart shot.
I think it was about 3 weeks before he was telling me about trading that rifle in on an Anschutze .22. He'd done more hunting with the .17HMR, and the results were much the same as our trip together.
Cant help but notice a good number of very nice looking .17 caliber rifles on the used rack everytime I visit shops.
They DO look good on a ballistics chart. Guess it just depends what your using it for.
He DID also have tales of blowing apart a ground hogs head with the .17 before getting rid of it. :-\
I don't know how to break this to you, BM, but those shots at the crows were kinda stupid, doncha think? In case you are unaware of the laws of physics, a projectile that is fired into the air is going to come down SOMEPLACE. I only hope your dumbass friend's rounds didn't strike and kill somebody's little kid a mile or so away from where you are. That's why NORMAL people use shotguns for birds.
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He lives in a valley in KY, and ownes all the property around... Unless the mighty .17 goes through mountains....
Off your high horse.
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He lives in a valley in KY, and ownes all the property around... Unless the mighty .17 goes through mountains....
Off your high horse.
Kentucky. Explains a lot. ;D
And it's NICE up here. ;D ;D
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Kentucky. Explains a lot. ;D
And it's NICE up here. ;D ;D
Give a better view over the peasants. ;D ;) ;D
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Give a better view over the peasants. ;D ;) ;D
Don't tell anybody, Badgersmilk, but I AM one of the peasants. LOL
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Don't tell anybody, Badgersmilk, but I AM one of the peasants. LOL
Awful well fed peasant if you ask me ;)
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Awful well fed peasant if you ask me ;)
Ok, here come the fat jokes. ;D
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(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/1111.jpg?t=1251411501)]
Salad. It's what's for dinner!
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Ok ... I should have done a little fix it on these (get rid of old fat dude), but I can't figure the program out on this puter :-[
Beef ... It's whats for dinner !!!
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/Annetherentsx.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/DadandAnnex.jpg)
Ok ... Just bragging again, but if she's got it I can flaunt it ;D She's done light years better than the old man!
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Ok ... I should have done a little fix it on these (get rid of old fat dude), but I can't figure the program out on this puter :-[
Beef ... It's whats for dinner !!!
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/Annetherentsx.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/DadandAnnex.jpg)
Ok ... Just bragging again, but if she's got it I can flaunt it ;D She's done light years better than the old man!
She's a lot better LOOKING than the old man, too. ;D
Wait a minute.........who IS that guy?!? Can't be YOU.......too much HAIR!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/1111.jpg?t=1251411501)]
Salad. It's what's for dinner!
I'd eat that!! ;D
Yes, Teresa, I know..............................................corner!! ;D
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(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/DadandAnnex.jpg)
Are you taking a dump in that picture ???
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Are you taking a dump in that picture ???
No, he's not sweating enough. :o
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You had to be there for the previous half hour to understand. I'm lucky to be standing at that point ;D
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We finished our firearms safety class this week and had one of those bonus moments. An overweight 12 year old girl with glasses and very shy started the class because grandpa wants all his grandkids to take it. Mom brought her the first night and was a little reluctant, but since grandpa said so they were going through with it.
As the weeks passed this young lady came out of her shell and was not afraid to express herself. It was obvious that she had read the book far ahead of what we assigned (grandpa told me one day that she read the whole book the first weekend), and as I looked things over one night I saw that she had almost all the worksheets done early.
On range night this week she shot a gun for the first time. We use the basic DNR paper at 75 feet, and they shoot five rounds from each of the four positions. All twenty of her shots were within a 3" radius (that includes off hand, kneeling, sitting and prone). We're excited to get these first timers on paper, and this young lady put every shot in the scoring rings. When I would walk up to point out where they had hit between positions she had doubles or triples every time.
The 4-H coach works with me on these classes and the FFA adviser had left the range just as we started shooting. By the time we finished the coach was talking to the young lady, mom and grandpa, and he had been on the phone with the FFA adviser. I talked about how this type of shooting gave me the incentive to cut some weight and improve my diet so I could shoot beter, and all three thought that was a great idea. We both talked about this being a true sport, and that it is a lifetime sport if you want it.
When we left the range the entire family was talking about this being her thing!
Sometimes you just feel great to be at the right place at the right time.
BTW - We were shooting cheap Winchesters that were picked up used on a farm sale many years ago, and American Eagle cheap ammo that the DNR gave us (they used to send us Federal Gold Match or CCI standard velocity - some companies donate some real nice stuff).
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Great job and good follow up there!
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Wait... I declare HI-JACK here!
Wasnt somebody somewhere talking about rimfires? ;D
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Wait... I declare HI-JACK here!
Wasnt somebody somewhere talking about rimfires? ;D
Welcome to the forum!
I did bring it back somewhat with the class info ;)