The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on September 04, 2009, 01:22:42 PM
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Speaks of 1911, M9, and auto's in general.
http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=230&Itemid=66
Read, then listen (audio at bottom article).
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"Whenever you clean your 1911s, check the plunger tube for movement. It could save your life."
http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=619&Itemid=1
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thanks, good read.
i guess there is not much importance on sidearms for the army. think about it, your regular joe enlisted that will see combat most weeks is primarily using his M16, hence more effort is put into producing a good weapon for people that are going to use it.
the m9 on the other hand, is used by high command and REMFS, people that will never use it in combat, so there is no real reason to put money into it.
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thanks, good read.
i guess there is not much importance on sidearms for the army. think about it, your regular joe enlisted that will see combat most weeks is primarily using his M16, hence more effort is put into producing a good weapon for people that are going to use it.
the m9 on the other hand, is used by high command and REMFS, people that will never use it in combat, so there is no real reason to put money into it.
This is a big problem for the army of many countries. Obviously an M16 o an M4 is more effective than an M9, but many soldiers can't carry an assult rifle. Those in the artillery, those who drive trucks, MBT, AIFV etc, they can't carry an assault rifle, and the only practical solution is an automatic gun (M9 or stuff like that). What is the best weapon for non combatant sodiers? It is a dilemma. Heckler Koch has designed the MP7 for this purpose, a compact weapon that use a more powerful and piercing ammo than 9x19. But unless you have an MP7 an M9 is always a useful tool in your hands. A friend of mine was ambushed in Iraq 3 years ago, and in that occasion he had only his M9. He was shot at and he shot back, and now he is still alive.
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i understand, but the unlikely chance that they will ever use it is why the gov. never put any money into a decent pistol.
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You guys need to watch the TV more. 1 out of 3 personnel are carring a M9 in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Most of those that have a M9 usually also have a long gun. The problem with the M9 or any pistol in the services is lack of training. I always said that there was only three things wrong with the M1911 (which I was issued for years and carried in Iraq 03-08 and along with my M9)
1. Sights are too small
2. No new guns since 1945
3. Army doesn't teach how to use a handgun
I've been trained in the offensive use of the handgun for decades but thats Special Operations and not regular Army. Remember the Mk23 pistol for SOCOM is an offensive pistol. Seen very few M11 9mm pistols but the majority is the M9. During GW1 I carried a suppressed M9 along with my M16A2/M203 and again in Iraq during 03-08' (missed 07) carried either a M9, M11, M1911 or SIG 226 (contractor) along with my M4 and M79. This year in Afghanistan I'm unarmed in my contract and will have to do a battlefield recovery in need presents itself.
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Forgot to add my son is also carrying a cocked and locked M1911A1 currently this year in Iraq. He also has his M9 and is in Special Forces also.
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If current training is anything like the training when I was in (early 70's) it is abysmally bad. We were trained to fire one handed and nobody cared whether we hit the target. And this was in Infantry OCS!
The 45 (Nobody then called it a 1911 and would have been clueless if you called it that) was despised by most officers and troops who carried it because they could rarely hit what they shot at. Every "45" I ever handled was loose and rattled like a new years eve party favor. Most had been through rebuilding several times, you could count the arsenal marks all over the gun. But they always went bang and nobody complained about stopping power. The normal mantra is that if you hit the target he was down,the problem was hitting him.
The old bar challenge was "you take the 45 and I'll take an empty M14 with bayonet and we meet in high grass". We drank a lot in those days, the Army was not the high speed low drag force it is today.
I was assigned to a tank battalion in germany, and I was not a tanker (Thank god!) Because I had had grunt training I had the privilege of running the Battalion 45 familiarization range twice a year. In those days you were required to "Familiarize with your assigned weapon" at least once a year. That means you went to the range demonstrated you could load and fire the weapon at a target and hit something. No scores were kept. The range officer (Lil 'ol me) certified you could shoot without endangering yourself or your crew. Seems simple but it was a life threatening job, as tankers are notorious for bad, no, outright dangerous gun handling. I managed not to get shot, but had to shoot for a couple of guys who were just incompetent to handle a handgun. Pencil qualification we called it. And we had to shoot up all the ammo we drew.
Pistol marksmanship was never a priority in those days.
I would still rather have the 45...oops I mean the 1911 than the M9.
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You guys need to watch the TV more. 1 out of 3 personnel are carring a M9 in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Most of those that have a M9 usually also have a long gun. The problem with the M9 or any pistol in the services is lack of training. I always said that there was only three things wrong with the M1911 (which I was issued for years and carried in Iraq 03-08 and along with my M9)
1. Sights are too small
2. No new guns since 1945
3. Army doesn't teach how to use a handgun
I've been trained in the offensive use of the handgun for decades but thats Special Operations and not regular Army. Remember the Mk23 pistol for SOCOM is an offensive pistol. Seen very few M11 9mm pistols but the majority is the M9. During GW1 I carried a suppressed M9 along with my M16A2/M203 and again in Iraq during 03-08' (missed 07) carried either a M9, M11, M1911 or SIG 226 (contractor) along with my M4 and M79. This year in Afghanistan I'm unarmed in my contract and will have to do a battlefield recovery in need presents itself.
I watch tv and i see that many soldiers carry M9 and the assault rifle. My experience as a soldier barely compare to yours (i was a private in the italian army in 1989 - 1990, i shot 2-3 times with M1 Garand and Beretta BM59, and only once with Beretta 34, no operative mission), and i agree with Combat Driver that training is very important, but the fact is that a pistol is always a pistol, and also in very good trained soldiers an assault rifle is far more effective than a pistol. Maybe an M23 is better than an M9, but the effectiveness , in my opinion, is not so different. The service pistol for a regular soldier is a backup weapon, not an offensive weapon (maybe in SOF is different). I think that the assault rifle (regarding its quality and the training) is far more important.
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As weird as this sounds. What I found out when I was in the service was you have to request pistol training from your supervisor. He wont point out its available, and probably doesnt even KNOW its available until you push the request. Upon request of the class, your supervisor is resposible to get you the form. Unless it's decided you will never have need for the training (I was an F16 chief and got aproved!), you go to the 1 day class... It's actually pretty good! And fun. ;D
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The remarks of Vickers are on the mark. Correct lubrication, recoil spring replacement, and proper magazines are vital to the successful use of the M9 in the same way these needs are to the 1911. As for the locking block, it is considered a consumable too and should be replaced as needed. Routine inspections by a trained person can advise when to do so. That said, it is true Beretta has improved this part in recent runs of the pistol. I like my Beretta 92 very much. I follow the rules though, train or practice with it, and know it well. I take nothing for granted when it comes to the reliability of a handgun.
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I dont think this article bashes the M9 (at least IMO), I think he's just pointing out things anyone should be aware according to his experience with the weapon.
His comments on it place it in the same family as the AR (needing very particular care and cleaning), I also dont think the military intended to short change the troops by issueing the M9 & AR family's. Low recoil, very fast / flat shooting, and small ammo that troops can carry a ton of. These are the main priorities in the mind's of US governments upper crust who decide what the average GI will be equiped with. They expect he'll maintain his pistol the same as he does his rifle. Cleaning and oiling it at least daily even in the middle of a 120 degree sand storm, or ass deep in a jungle / swamp. ::)
When I was in the sand box we actually had a class on cleaning weapons while in chem. gear since we wore the crap for hours, and hours, and hours an given day. How bad do you think we wanted to kill the guys that dropped the little pin from the bolt (firing pin retainer?)?!?! We werent allowed to continue until we found them all. If it werent training I think we would have just killed them and use their weapons for parts! Try wrapping your entire body in rubber in 120 degree heat and patiently looking for a needle in a haystack. This is how "friendly fire" happens. >:( STUPID AR'S!!!
Could have been a LOT worse. I cant even imagin what our guys did when one of those tiny little parts dropped out of an AR in the jungle's of Vietnam!!!! Wait till your buddies jams in a fire fight gets him killed, then take parts from it?
:(
No problems with the pistol part of the training (M9's)!
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god, the NBC suits were the worst part of my G1.
one night we had 2 false alarms were we had to kit up in full suits and head down to the bunkers. the third time nobody bothered to move and only ruperts and high com went to try and set an example. ;D every time SH set one of them scuds off anywhere in iraq, all coalition forces had to move into safety, with all this tech you think they could be more specific.
the heat was the worst, its like a big giant condom that all your sweat collects in the booties.