The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Ichiban on September 18, 2009, 09:16:24 AM
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A couple of questions for those in the know:
Are the military contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan restricted to ball ammo like the military?
What about contractors that aren't working directly for the U.S. military?
And if you are not "in the know" feel free to opine anyway. ;D
These questions are a result of yet another "M9 vs. 1911" "discussion" where the point was
made that the people that are on the front-line carry a 1911 when they can. Personally, I would
not feel under-gunned with an M9 with 124gr +P Gold Dot ammo but would (if restricted to ball ammo)
definitely prefer a 1911. A high capacity .45 is, without a doubt, the best way to go.
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Good question. I would think (opine-ing here) that if you are official, you are using ball only. A merc probably doesn't have to follow, but you'd better not lose or you will pay a heavy price.
I remember reading the Churchill carried a broomhandle Mauser with dum-dums during the Boer War. When it looked like he was going to be captured, he dumped the gun and bullets so he would not be caught with them. It would have been a summary execution if he had been.
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I would think they would have to abide the "Hague convention" as our armed forces do and use only ball ammo. I may be wrong
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
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Nope, Geneva and Hague Convention apply only to the uniformed military. Contractors (other wise known as mercenaries) have no rights, nor obligations under the Geneva Convention. They are by definition unlawful combatants and can be killed on sight. This is balanced by the fact that our enemy is made up of unlawful combatants who behead folks on video tape and so the Geneva Convention is largley BS in Afghanisitan. You just don't get captured (This is a grenade. There are many like it. This one is mine. :-\)/ The thing is, in Iraq there are rules. In Afghanistan not so much as none of our enemies even pretend to follow them.
FQ13
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Nope, Geneva and Hague Convention apply only to the uniformed military. Contractors (other wise known as mercenaries) have no rights, nor obligations under the Geneva Convention. They are by definition unlawful combatants and can be killed on sight. This is balanced by the fact that our enemy is made up of unlawful combatants who behead folks on video tape and so the Geneva Convention is largley BS in Afghanisitan. You just don't get captured (This is a grenade. There are many like it. This one is mine. :-\)/ The thing is, in Iraq there are rules. In Afghanistan not so much as none of our enemies even pretend to follow them.
FQ13
And you know this HOW ?
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And you know this HOW ?
I'm not sure what you're asking. The Geneva Convention applies to uniformed armed forces members of a signatory state and is binding on another signatory nation. Mercs, spies, and irregulars aren't covered. Neither are those operating out of uniform or "using civilians as a ruse of war". Those, you can shoot. If you want to argue about Afghanistan, I guess I'd offer the following. I love our military and have great faith in it. I'm just not sure what we have that Alexander the Great, The British Empire and the Soviet Union didn't. I am particularly unsure why we should try when even if we win, all we'll get is a bunch of rocks, dirt and muslim fanatics. I'd rather win the turtle wax, Rice-A-Roni and the play at home version of Jeopardy. At least in Iraq we theoretically get oil. Look how well thats paying for itself. ::) Anyway, rephrase your question and I'll answer your objection. I hope I made my basic position plain.
FQ13 Who has less than zero desire to engage in a prolonged occupation of a muslim country (because thats always so much fun). ::)
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Nope, Geneva and Hague Convention apply only to the uniformed military. Contractors (other wise known as mercenaries) have no rights, nor obligations under the Geneva Convention. They are by definition unlawful combatants and can be killed on sight. This is balanced by the fact that our enemy is made up of unlawful combatants who behead folks on video tape and so the Geneva Convention is largley BS in Afghanisitan. You just don't get captured (This is a grenade. There are many like it. This one is mine. :-\)/ The thing is, in Iraq there are rules. In Afghanistan not so much as none of our enemies even pretend to follow them.
FQ13
You left out the other middle men - the contractors who are working for the US gummint as in State Dept security, etc. These are official US representatives, I am guessing they have to obey too. Of course they probably draw from the same equipment sources as the military, so ball is easier to acquire.
Contractors do not equal mercs, they are employees (W-2 or 1099 or corp-to-corp) of the gummint, that's why I distinguished between them. You should too. And notice I omitted names of companies, did not want to set you off on another rant full of storm and fury, signifying nothing.
I have a contact from the afore-not-mentioned company, I will check with him.
BTW, anyone see the Sig GSR 1911 Blackwater commemorative? I want one. And not just because it's a Sig. I already got the cool hat and t-shirt! ;D
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/1911-blkwtr-detail-l.jpg)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/13/sig-1911-blackwater-pistol/ (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/13/sig-1911-blackwater-pistol/)
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You left out the other middle men - the contractors who are working for the US gummint as in State Dept security, etc. These are official US representatives, I am guessing they have to obey too. Of course they probably draw from the same equipment sources as the military, so ball is easier to acquire.
Contractors do not equal mercs, they are employees (W-2 or 1099 or corp-to-corp) of the gummint, that's why I distinguished between them. You should too. And notice I omitted names of companies, did not want to set you off on another rant full of storm and fury, signifying nothing.
I have a contact from the afore-not-mentioned company, I will check with him.
BTW, anyone see the Sig GSR 1911 Blackwater commemorative? I want one. And not just because it's a Sig. I already got the cool hat and t-shirt! ;D
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/1911-blkwtr-detail-l.jpg)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/13/sig-1911-blackwater-pistol/ (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/13/sig-1911-blackwater-pistol/)
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You raise an interesting question, but its largely moot. Does a contractor enjoy the same rights as a soldier under the Geneva convention? At first blush the answer would be no. However, given that the enemy in Afghanistan will kill both without distinction the legalities don't matter. As the the late Sid Vicious said "Do what you bloody want. Just don't let the bastards take you alive".
FQ13 who is an unapologetic child of the 80s, and when it comes to the laws of war a VERY practical man ;D
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Outside of your lack of standing with the Geneva Convention, your arm selections as a US citizen, are regulated under the ITAR restrictions. International Treaty on Arms Reduction, you need licenses, export and end user certificates to move ammo and weapons from country to country. It's takes 6 weeks for us to get a temporary export license for our gear which does not typically include firearms. You'll also need to get a Form 4457 to bring your own weapon back into the country.
It's much easier to pick up the weapons locally than to bring your own if you don't have the backing of a legal department or an export company.
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no you are not restricted to anything, but ball is by far the most easily available, during my time with triple canopy we just spooned stuff off the US base in An najaf. to get special ammo you need to put a request in to Com. and then they need to get a air freight and it then takes about 3 weeks to get there, generally isnt worth it.
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There are indeed rules in Afghanistan, Rudyard Kipling Noted them over 100 years ago.
When the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East
'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast,
An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased
Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier.
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
So-oldier OF the Queen!
Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day,
You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay,
An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may:
A soldier what's fit for a soldier.
Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . .
First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts,
For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts --
Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts --
An' it's bad for the young British soldier.
Bad, bad, bad for the soldier . . .
When the cholera comes -- as it will past a doubt --
Keep out of the wet and don't go on the shout,
For the sickness gets in as the liquor dies out,
An' it crumples the young British soldier.
Crum-, crum-, crumples the soldier . . .
But the worst o' your foes is the sun over'ead:
You must wear your 'elmet for all that is said:
If 'e finds you uncovered 'e'll knock you down dead,
An' you'll die like a fool of a soldier.
Fool, fool, fool of a soldier . . .
If you're cast for fatigue by a sergeant unkind,
Don't grouse like a woman nor crack on nor blind;
Be handy and civil, and then you will find
That it's beer for the young British soldier.
Beer, beer, beer for the soldier . . .
Now, if you must marry, take care she is old --
A troop-sergeant's widow's the nicest I'm told,
For beauty won't help if your rations is cold,
Nor love ain't enough for a soldier.
'Nough, 'nough, 'nough for a soldier . . .
If the wife should go wrong with a comrade, be loath
To shoot when you catch 'em -- you'll swing, on my oath! --
Make 'im take 'er and keep 'er: that's Hell for them both,
An' you're shut o' the curse of a soldier.
Curse, curse, curse of a soldier . . .
When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck,
Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck,
Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck
And march to your front like a soldier.
Front, front, front like a soldier . . .
When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;
She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich,
An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.
Fight, fight, fight for the soldier . . .
When shakin' their bustles like ladies so fine,
The guns o' the enemy wheel into line,
Shoot low at the limbers an' don't mind the shine,
For noise never startles the soldier.
Start-, start-, startles the soldier . . .
If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
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. . .
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
As I said. This is a grenade, there are many like it, this one is mine. We are there why again?
FQ13
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As I said. This is a grenade, there are many like it, this one is mine. We are there why again?
FQ13
Cuz the a$$holes in Iraq wouldn't play any more.
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I heard back from someone who is a real "operator" - has been in Iraq for the State dept. and served in other PMC roles. Basically, contractors can and do use what is generally available and that includes JHP rounds. Same as the State Dept.'s own DSS. Speer Gold Dot 124 was specifically mentioned. He said military units are the only units restricted to ball.
He also stated: "The Geneva is applicable. But only to military forces. The State Dept and other Feds are NOT military and, even though they operate in war zones, have no obligation to comply with the Geneva Convention."
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Cuz the a$$holes in Iraq wouldn't play any more.
Maybe Tom, but until someone tells me how we win, or for that matter even tells me what winning is (beyond playing whack a mole with Jihadis, which are as common as rocks in Afghanistan) I will be a bit skeptical of what is sneaking up on an 8 year war fought somewhere I really don't give a crap about and where previous empires have come to grief trying to do the same damn thing.
FQ13
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I'm not sure what you're asking. The Geneva Convention applies to uniformed armed forces members of a signatory state and is binding on another signatory nation. Mercs, spies, and irregulars aren't covered. Neither are those operating out of uniform or "using civilians as a ruse of war". Those, you can shoot. If you want to argue about Afghanistan, I guess I'd offer the following. I love our military and have great faith in it. I'm just not sure what we have that Alexander the Great, The British Empire and the Soviet Union didn't. I am particularly unsure why we should try when even if we win, all we'll get is a bunch of rocks, dirt and muslim fanatics. I'd rather win the turtle wax, Rice-A-Roni and the play at home version of Jeopardy. At least in Iraq we theoretically get oil. Look how well thats paying for itself. ::) Anyway, rephrase your question and I'll answer your objection. I hope I made my basic position plain.
FQ13 Who has less than zero desire to engage in a prolonged occupation of a muslim country (because thats always so much fun). ::)
We most likely do, but pray tell me, what rules of war Alexander was required to fallow?
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We most likely do, but pray tell me, what rules of war Alexander was required to fallow?
Besides, Al is a bad example. He went to Afghanistan, kicked ass, went on to Pakistan and India, kicked some more ass, came back through Afghanistan kicking ass all the way and made it all the way back to Egypt. Hardly a failure.
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Besides, Al is a bad example. He went to Afghanistan, kicked ass, went on to Pakistan and India, kicked some more ass, came back through Afghanistan kicking ass all the way and made it all the way back to Egypt. Hardly a failure.
But he never really bothered to try to OCCUPY. He just killed the ruler and replaced him with one of his Generals and moved on, leaving everything behind him just as it had been, just a new face on the money.
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But he never really bothered to try to OCCUPY. He just killed the ruler and replaced him with one of his Generals and moved on, leaving everything behind him just as it had been, just a new face on the money.
And that is the key. He didn't spend 8 years trying to bring "democracy" to the place, because God knows the Sovs were successful after 10 years of trying to bring comunism. He just came killed and then moved on, a strategy we should emulate. To continue Tom's Kipling theme,
"OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth"
Maybe we'll find those two strong men, but in the mean time we are losing a lot of good soldiers in a God forsaken rathole where even if we conquer it we gain nothing but an impoverished nation full of people who hate us that we become rsponsible for feeding. If there is an upside to this please let me know.
FQ13