The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: cooptire on September 18, 2009, 05:18:48 PM
-
I'm just throwing this out to see how big a dust-up this might bring on.
A good friend of mine and shooter, who is an attorney, told me that he had a very long conversation with a gentleman in Vegas (works as a public defender in Las Vegas for capitol offenses) who has participated in a lot autopsies. He now carries a high quality ball ammo in his Kel-Tec .380 instead of hollow points. His reason was that the Vegas contact recommended full metal jacket or hard cast lead because of the MANY times he had personally seen where the .380 hollowpoints were stopped or deflected by clothing, gear, bones, etc resulting in a non crippling hit to the bad guy. He said he saw the ball ammo working better at slowing down/stopping when used in a self defense role because the HP ammo didn't penetrate deep enough into the body to provide those critical hits that are needed.
Your thoughts?
-
i'm sure in some situations there are advantages to using ball ammo, but I still feel more comfortable using the Hornady .380 XTP's with controlled expansion. Before that I used Speer Gold Dots.
I have also switched to Hornady FTX's in my M&P340 after running my own expansion, penetration tests.
They seem to make a much bigger hole than ball and if they don't penetrate I bet they still hurt like hell.
-
I only use FMJs for practice, not carry.
The worst a HP will do is act like a FMJ.
-
Well, if the guy is doing autopsies on the bad guys, I guess the HP's worked. ::)
-
Location, location, location.
-
There was truth to that.
Not so much anymore.
-
Most people I know carry ball in small (under 9mm) pistols . Only way you can get some penetration. HPs have problems in full power pistols when trying to get thru heavy clothing. The new generation of expanding FMJs will probably be a good choice once the bullet weights get a little higher. The .40 is up to 135 gr. which isnt too bad but there are only a few calibers available.
-
I tested several types of .380 HP and picked Speer Gold Dots because I got 6 inches of penetration, good expansion and weight retention when shooting into compressed phone books.
Also being here in FL heavy clothing just isn't a factor.
-
Sooooooooo, there you are, carrying a .380 to defend your life. Dirt bag is threatening enough that he's forced you to draw your gun and shoot! If your problem is clothing stopping the bullet... You probably should loose this conflict and be killed to prevent further breeding and weakening of the human herd with your stupidity. >:(
It's a .380! Head shots! And plenty of them! Job done. ;D
-
Personally, I would rather shoot for center of mass and hope I hit, than try for a head shot in a panic situation and most likely miss.
Sooooooooo, there you are, carrying a .380 to defend your life. Dirt bag is threatening enough that he's forced you to draw your gun and shoot! If your problem is clothing stopping the bullet... You probably should loose this conflict and be killed to prevent further breeding and weakening of the human herd with your stupidity. >:(
It's a .380! Head shots! And plenty of them! Job done. ;D
-
I think thats why they call those "back up guns" not suitable for a primary carry gun. And today you have several full power pistols to choose from which are similar in size. :P
-
If it's a real "self defense" situation how far away could the two people possibly be from each other? If I'm not confident enough in my shooting, or in my weapon at ranges around 15' or less... My death would fall under "thinning the herd" of stupid people. +1 for the bad guy. ;D Job well done on his part. ;)
-
If it's a real "self defense" situation how far away could the two people possibly be from each other? If I'm not confident enough in my shooting, or in my weapon at ranges around 15' or less... My death would fall under "thinning the herd" of stupid people. +1 for the bad guy. ;D Job well done on his part. ;)
Did you ever consider the fact that some people have disabilities that might just have an effect on their shooting capabilities?
And that when the sh%t hits the fan you may not be shooting from your normal, well practiced stance. It may be in the dark, from inside a vehicle, running (away), or any number of other situations that I or you can't predict. And most of the thugs out here are wearing hoods so that in itself makes for a "let's see, where is his head in there?"
Beyond extremely close range (0-3 feet is "point-blank range" and 3-9 feet is "close range"), handguns are very difficult to shoot accurately. According to Sanford Strong, retired San Diego police SWAT team instructor and author of “Strong on Defense,” police officers miss with 75 percent of close-range shots while criminals miss with 96 percent of close-range shots. And a moving target is even more difficult to hit.
Just my thoughts and I welcome yours.
-
Did you ever consider the fact that some people have disabilities that might just have an effect on their shooting capabilities?
And that when the sh%t hits the fan you may not be shooting from your normal, well practiced stance. It may be in the dark, from inside a vehicle, running (away), or any number of other situations that I or you can't predict. And most of the thugs out here are wearing hoods so that in itself makes for a "let's see, where is his head in there?"
Beyond extremely close range (0-3 feet is "point-blank range" and 3-9 feet is "close range"), handguns are very difficult to shoot accurately. According to Sanford Strong, retired San Diego police SWAT team instructor and author of “Strong on Defense,” police officers miss with 75 percent of close-range shots while criminals miss with 96 percent of close-range shots. And a moving target is even more difficult to hit.
Just my thoughts and I welcome yours.
Police are notorious bad shots, in my town they get to practice twice a year , and only when a range officer can be there, which means unless they have a place to practice they are out of luck. Most don't shoot until they have to qualify and thats a joke. Handguns are not difficult to shoot accurately if you practice the basics and train in a realistic atmosphere.
-
From 2How's Post ; "if you practice the basics and train in a realistic atmosphere."
That's a pretty big IF though, Between budgets cuts, rising prices, and the recent availability issues several Departments around here have cut back drastically on what training they DID do, in fact, last year a couple of local departments waived the annual qualification.
-
+1 on the .380 as a "backup gun". And if dealing with a handicap of any kind I'd be trying to find a place to stash a full size .45 such as a G21, with a G30 backup. More firepower = less handicap ;D.
PD's skipping on even having qualification!?! :o Maybe they feel the cops get enough practice in the streets with crime rates what they are. :-\
-
+1 on the .380 as a "backup gun". And if dealing with a handicap of any kind I'd be trying to find a place to stash a full size .45 such as a G21, with a G30 backup. More firepower = less handicap ;D.
PD's skipping on even having qualification!?! :o Maybe they feel the cops get enough practice in the streets with crime rates what they are. :-\
HA HA HA LOL ;D We don't have THAT many Massholes, yet. ;D I've lived here almost 5 years now, and read the paper every day, in that time 2 people have been tazered, and one of them was an accident. ;D No cop has fired his weapon in this county (except at the range) since I've lived here.
-
Sounds like you've got the national average well beat!
-
I have to correct my last post, about 2 years ago a Laconia Cop shot and killed a bear at a local tourist attraction, (The game Warden was busy on the other side of the county).
I'd be willing to bet (which doesn't mean I'm right ;D ) That most of the more rural counties are like that, It's the big cities that drive up the national average. As with gun laws the ignorance of the urbanites skews the statistics.
-
For me .380 is not all that bad as long as shot placement does its job. I realize that .380 is not my G20 in 10mm but i would rather fire off a few rounds of .380 than go at it with cold steel. I have never been one to leave home unprepared, i have practiced judo and thai boxing for a number if years and feel ready for hand to hand. Now if it came down to knife vs gun i wouldnt feel out of place carrying a .380. Its better than throwing rocks.
-
Few internet people seem to realize it's hard to carry full size auto's and large frame revolvers when wearing shorts. :-\
When it's 90+ deg. out, and 80%+ humidity every day wearing anything other than shorts on a Saturday is going to draw attention when you pass out.
A .380 in the pocket is A LOT more protection than a 12 gauge with slugs laying at home. ;)
-
BINGO! and I use .380 Speer Gold Dot JHP rounds.
-
Few internet people seem to realize it's hard to carry full size auto's and large frame revolvers when wearing shorts. :-\
When it's 90+ deg. out, and 80%+ humidity every day wearing anything other than shorts on a Saturday is going to draw attention when you pass out.
A .380 in the pocket is A LOT more protection than a 12 gauge with slugs laying at home. ;)
I haven't had any trouble under those conditions with my Govt. model 1911, or the .357 Magnums that I've been carrying for 25 years. More problems with access in winter.
Actually I don't see what the big deal is with concealment and shorts, If they cover your ass they will cover the barrel of a concealed pistol.
-
. Now if it came down to knife vs gun i wouldnt feel out of place carrying a .380. Its better than throwing rocks.
Which is all that can, or needs, to be said about a .380 or .32. A nine is better, a .45 better still. But if you can get a tiny one, like a kel tec and you will carry it when you would leave a larger gun at home, than a .380 beats a rock every damn time.
FQ13
-
"The gun you have is better than the gun at home" is a given. I'm still curious about everyone's thoughts on FMJ vs. hollow point, in the .380 only. It appears that a guy with real world evidence is saying to carry FMJ rather than a hollow point. More thoughts.
-
My thought on FMJ versus HP is that while 9MM HP's have come along way over the last 20 years, the lighter powder charge and generally shorter barrels of modern 380's make HP performance a more "iffy" proposition in the 380 due to lower velocity.
-
My thought on FMJ versus HP is that while 9MM HP's have come along way over the last 20 years, the lighter powder charge and generally shorter barrels of modern 380's make HP performance a more "iffy" proposition in the 380 due to lower velocity.
I think it depends on your gun. There is zero difference (where it matters) between an HP that fails to expand and ball. What DOES matter is which yor gun will feed reliably. If it shoots ball without a hiccup and has some jams with HPs, there's your question answered. The thing is that if you shoot someone with a .380 you're probably not going to shoot them just once anyway regardless of what you load. I would let the gun decide what ammo is "best" by seeing what cycles best.
just my .02
FQ13
-
Considering a "self defense" situation is going to take place WELL (did I say WELLLLLLL) under 10 yards, a .380 with hollow points will do very well with even half decent shot placement.
As far as penetrating clothing, I'd have plenty of confidence in a .380 HP penetrating anything North Face, or Columbia produces. But I've seen some THICK leather biker jackets that may cause issues... So again GO FOR THE HEAD SHOT, and dont be stingy about investing three or four rounds in the guy! ;) & as long as we're sticking with the .380 caliber. My choice would be the same .380 Gold Dot JHP's Haz is using.
-
Here is some .380 gelitan tests done out of a Kel-Tec P-380
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm
*PS - Cor Bon DPX 80gr :o
(http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/xcb-dpx.jpg)
Expansion: .645
-
Hmmm 16 or 17 inch penetration with ball. I may start loading alternate JHP and ball in mine.
-
Considering a "self defense" situation is going to take place WELL (did I say WELLLLLLL) under 10 yards, a .380 with hollow points will do very well with even half decent shot placement.
As far as penetrating clothing, I'd have plenty of confidence in a .380 HP penetrating anything North Face, or Columbia produces. But I've seen some THICK leather biker jackets that may cause issues... So again GO FOR THE HEAD SHOT, and dont be stingy about investing three or four rounds in the guy! ;) & as long as we're sticking with the .380 caliber. My choice would be the same .380 Gold Dot JHP's Haz is using.
Badger I have two issues with your post. One is that a head shot on a moving target under any conditions, let alone scared spitless is hard. Secondly, I think you are correct in assuming that if we have to shoot someone the distance will be measured in feet not yards. Given this is the case, when I draw from a cross draw IWB, my first shot will be when the muzzle is pointing at the BGs torso (not aimed at, pointed at, if we're talking bad breath distance).I will bring the weapon up to aim if I can but otherwise will point and click at center mass. Head shots are not on the menu.
FQ13
-
Hmmm 16 or 17 inch penetration with ball. I may start loading alternate JHP and ball in mine.
You would be decreasing energy from 181 (Cor Bon) to about 150-158 for those ball ammo rounds...... 17%
-
I'd give up a few inches penetration for the damage that Cor Bon's gonna do!
If, and that's a very likely IF, BG is in reaching distance I very much agree with the body shot being the only option (most likely anyway). And stand behind not being stingy with the ammunition in any case. Especially if I can get a little distance between me and him after the first shot. Head / face shot time.
I carry an extra magazine at all times, with all my CC choices. May as well use them. ;)
-
I'll still stick with my franglibles, the best of both worlds. I get bullet fragmentation causing tissue damage and the base of the bullet stays intact for penetration.
Prior to these I carried Cor Bon.
I don't know about the leather jackets. They didn't seem to have much trouble going through the mining belt I had my targets stapled to the other day.
-
Kel-tec being about the smallest, if not THE smallest available with "high capacity", does anybody have a picture of their .380 next to they're 9mm for size comparison?
-
This is another good site with .380 ballistic testing through clothing.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/95gr%20Federal%20American%20Eagle%20FMJ%20and%2095gr%20Winchester%20'WWB'%20truncated%20cone%20(Heavy%20clothing%20test).html
Cartridge : .380ACP 95gr Federal American Eagle FMJ and 95gr Winchester 'WWB' truncated cone
Firearm : Kel-Tec P3AT with 2.75" barrel length
Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 7.6cm @ 574 ft/sec)
Test Weather Conditions : 45degF, 45% humidity and 5mph wind gusts. Diffuse sunlight.
All shots fired from 10' distance. Block was faced with 4 layers of heavy denim fabric to simulate the strain on the bullet from penetrating heavy winter clothing. In order to keep in sync with the photos of the bullets, the test results will start with 'shot 4'.
Shot 4 - 95gr Winchester 'WWB' truncated cone. Impacted at 776 ft/sec, penetrated to 16.0" and was recovered at the base of a second gelatin block placed ~ 4.0" away from the rear of the first block. Bullet was recovered undeformed, with no expansion apparent.
Shot 5 - 95gr Federal American Eagle FMJ. Impacted at 741 ft/sec, penetrated to 18.4" and was recovered undeformed with no expansion apparent. No yawing was apparent during the entire penetration track.
-
Kel-tec being about the smallest, if not THE smallest available with "high capacity", does anybody have a picture of their .380 next to they're 9mm for size comparison?
(http://www.mouseguns.com/quad.jpg)
(http://www.mouseguns.com/weights.jpg)
http://www.mouseguns.com/pocksize.htm
-
DANG!!! GREAT FIND!!!
-
Here is a .380 LCP, .380 PPK/S, 9mm P89 comparison.
-
Kel-tec DOES make'em small!!!
REALLY, REALLY happy to see the gelitan results on the 7.62X39 154gr hollow points from the site you posted David!!! I'd picked up 1200 rounds of it when it was still $4.10 a box! Fired about 75 rounds just to verify smooth operation in my two guns, "hording" the rest. ;)
-
Here are my pics. My 92fs,84fs,3032,g19,g26, and bersa380
-
http://usrange.org/smf/index.php?topic=2780.0
I'd got curious about the two and had to go looking. I'm a pretty avid Ruger fan, but geesh! Holy copy cat Bat Man!
"The Ruger target has two more shots in it, because the Kel-Tec broke while shooting this target" :(
-
Magnum Research has a .380 for the "Ugliest gun" files. $450...
(http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/microegl.jpg)
-
It's a run what ya brung world. To big probably not brung. I "always" brung Either a pf9 or p380. 8) You can use your cannon ya did not or could not brung? :-*
-
Not having a .380 anymore I have skipped over this thread until today. I had a Kel-tec, but it was never comfortable to me.
My main carry gun is a Gov. 1911, and my secondary/backup is a S&W 442-2 in .38 special + P (j frame airweight). I use Federal hydra-shocks in both.
One thing I have learned through the years is it is all about shot placement. Whether you are talking about hunting or self defense you want to put the lead in the right place, as needed as much as needed. I have dispatched a 350 lb sow with a cheap .22 lr for a single shot fast drop, several .22 lr that did bring death after a few minutes, a .45 acp that took multiple shots, and .45 acp that I thought just knocked her over but she was dead on her feet.
It has been said on here that the worst carry gun is the gun you don't carry; that a .380 in your pocket is better than a 12 ga at home; etc. I don't care if you carry a 500 x frame, if you don't put the bullet in the right place it will do no good ... alright, with a 500 you could probably get by with just showing it in many cases, but wheter it is a .22 or a .45 the bullet in the right place will do the job.
Also, don't expect the "quick kill" that Hollywood had conditioned us to. You need time to bleed out, and anything hitting vessels will cause this ... eventually. The other thing we count on, and this is where size matters, is the shock of being hit, and hit hard. This would be Mr. Potterfield's "knock down factor." However, people will keep approaching and even get back up after initial shots. Medical examiners, solders and officers will verify that we need to protect "our space," because even after we connect with lead the bad guy can cover a lot of ground before dropping over.
Buy quality ammo, use it in a good gun, practice with your gun, be ready at all times, and pray you never need to use it.
-
Buy quality ammo, use it in a good gun, practice with your gun, be ready at all times, and pray you never need to use it.
+1
Great advice m58!!!!!!
-
Not having a .380 anymore I have skipped over this thread until today. I had a Kel-tec, but it was never comfortable to me.
My main carry gun is a Gov. 1911, and my secondary/backup is a S&W 442-2 in .38 special + P (j frame airweight). I use Federal hydra-shocks in both.
One thing I have learned through the years is it is all about shot placement. Whether you are talking about hunting or self defense you want to put the lead in the right place, as needed as much as needed. I have dispatched a 350 lb sow with a cheap .22 lr for a single shot fast drop, several .22 lr that did bring death after a few minutes, a .45 acp that took multiple shots, and .45 acp that I thought just knocked her over but she was dead on her feet.
It has been said on here that the worst carry gun is the gun you don't carry; that a .380 in your pocket is better than a 12 ga at home; etc. I don't care if you carry a 500 x frame, if you don't put the bullet in the right place it will do no good ... alright, with a 500 you could probably get by with just showing it in many cases, but wheter it is a .22 or a .45 the bullet in the right place will do the job.
Also, don't expect the "quick kill" that Hollywood had conditioned us to. You need time to bleed out, and anything hitting vessels will cause this ... eventually. The other thing we count on, and this is where size matters, is the shock of being hit, and hit hard. This would be Mr. Potterfield's "knock down factor." However, people will keep approaching and even get back up after initial shots. Medical examiners, solders and officers will verify that we need to protect "our space," because even after we connect with lead the bad guy can cover a lot of ground before dropping over.
Buy quality ammo, use it in a good gun, practice with your gun, be ready at all times, and pray you never need to use it.
Well said. With this single post you could end most of the threads that have ever been posted, and at least a thousand of the petty arguments on this forum! Congrats!
-
Buy quality ammo, use it in a good gun, practice with your gun, be ready at all times, and pray you never need to use it.
That about sums it up for any gun/caliber combination. Well said!
-
I liken stopping a human with a 380 to shooting an elephant with a 303 British
it can be done and it has been done many times , but those who knew what they were doing used only solids
if a given projectile in 380 can be made to expand enough to make a larger hole than a solid it will have such limited penetration as to be unreliable for reaching something of consequence
I have never soiled the barrel of my 380 (or my 32 b4 it) with an expanding bullet. channeling a little Koramojo there
-
I don't care who you channel. The name of the game is reliabilty first, stopping power second, accuracy third. With either a 9mm or a .380, I'm not not holding my breath for a one shot stop with a well aimed head shot. If I have time to line that up, I probably didn't have to shoot as a civilian the majority of the time (outside of my home). This stuff about take down at range, penetration (which often factors in windshield glass, hollow frame doors etc. as in the FBI's 12" minimum [how many people are 12" thick?]) and all is very useful, but it was designed for LEOs. Their job is to move towards the gunfire. Ours is to move away if circumstances (family members etc) permit. In our case its going to be fast and dirty and close. If you make a 15 yard head shot you're going to have some 'splainin to do, unless there were hostages present that you were related to or were at immediate risk. What we are looking for is what an old gunsmith I occasionally used to visit described as a "go away gun". As in go the f@#k away! Center mass and empty the mag unil he is no longer a threat. I like hydyra shock and TAPs and am considering gold dot, but my second round is WWB ball, becauseI know it will feed and fire.
FQ13 who knows a Glock is perfection, but still wants to know that second round will feed
-
What movie are people dreaming their in when they talk about needing 16" of penatration for "self defense"??? And WHY, WHY, WHY THE F$#@ would you only fire a single shot?!? My life is worth well more than a few extra rounds of ammo to be SURE the guy is down! Due to being in, or very nearly in physical contact with the assailant the first few rounds will be body shots. After that, yes, head shot! Blame it on "pannick, and histaria", whatever. If he was doing something bad enough to GET SHOT in the first place... FINISH THE JOB. I do NOT want to sit in a court room with this idiot who will SURELY be saying. "He just came out of the blue and shot me for no reason at all!!! He's crazy! Put HIM away!"
-
FQ13 and Badgersmilk I applaud your optimism but it seems somewhat incongruous to me , You acknowledge that the worst may happen by carrying a gun in the first place, but once the flag drops and you have your pistol in hand every thing is going to go just right. Your antagonist will be human, will fit into the normal body mass index, will face you head on, will be within ten feet, and will give you enough time to put ass manyy rounds in him as it will take.
I am not so optimistic. I figure that the problem I may have to solve could in fact be a large dog, a 6 foot 8 inch 450 pound brute, trying to beat my wife to death and only present me with a shot from the side, be at distance behind cover shooting at me or someone else I don't want shot, or attack from very close range and I will only have enough time for one shot.
A round that give you 12 inches of penetration in gelatin may give you 4 inches in dense muscle, is it unreasonable to think that you may have to stop some thug who has spent the last 8 years in a prison gym and has in excess of 4 inches of muscle covering the front of his thoracic cavity?
I only carry a 380 when I can't conceal a more effective weapon.
fyi - I was only channeling Mr Walter Dalrymple Maitland “Karamojo” Bell in that I was butchering his quote that he had not soiled the bores of his Elephant rifles with an expanding bullet. I am under no delusions that I could duplicate his skill ( make perfect brain shots under stress)
-
"I only carry a 380 when I can't conceal a more effective weapon."
The whole reason the caliber exists today. You work with the best you have in hand at the time. If I could carry a 12 gauge on a sling everywhere, not only would I. But, HELL YEAH WOULD I! If all I have is a ball point pen, and an oportunity to push it through the guys eye socket to the back of his skull... Then that's exactly what will be done. We're all victims of circumstance.
I dont own a .380", but understand its ballistics, and understand many of the variables of bullets penetrating animal flesh (30 years of hunting)... These two things give me personally confidence .380" is a "servicable" weapon in "self defense" situations.
Just my opinion.
If anyone doesnt have personal cofidence that a .380 will do the job. I HIGHLY recommend that person not carry one! Having confidence in yourself getting the job done is a big factor in weather you will or not.
-
I mentioned this in a previous post but check out the new Hornady Critical Defense line of ammo. In .380 you get 10-12 inches of penetration thru heavy clothing when shot from a short barrel gun such as a Ruger LCP. That should be enough to get the job done if you do your part of course.