The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: ericire12 on October 08, 2009, 07:53:36 AM
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-bloomberg/gun-show-undercover_b_312339.html
Ever wonder how criminals are able to get guns so easily? It's depressingly simple. On any given weekend, at dozens of gun shows held in states across the country -- criminals can buy guns from "private sellers" who are not required to perform background checks.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has identified gun shows as the source of more than 30% of all illegally trafficked guns in the country. Those are the guns most likely to be used in crimes -- and to kill innocent people, including police officers.
Today, New York City is releasing the results of a multi-state investigation into this activity: "Gun Show Undercover." We sent investigators with hidden cameras to seven gun shows across Ohio, Tennessee and Nevada, and we found out just how easy it is for criminals and the mentally ill to walk in and buy guns -- no questions asked.
Our investigators told the private sellers that they "probably couldn't pass a background check" -- and at that point, the seller should have sent them away. Because even private sellers are prohibited by federal law from selling to those who they have reason to suspect could not pass a background check.
Instead, 19 out of 30 private sellers made the sale.
2009-10-07-SharonvilleOH2.jpg
Our investigator tells a seller that he "probably couldn't pass" a background check and tests a gun.
These so-called private sellers are supposed to be making only occasional sales. According to federal law, they cannot be "engaged in the business" of selling firearms. But that's exactly what we found. We found private sellers with large inventories doing a brisk business. In fact, one private seller acknowledged selling 348 guns in less than a year.
Now, why is the Mayor of New York City investigating gun shows in places like Ohio, Tennessee, and Nevada? Good question. And the answer is: because I have no other choice.
Even though New York is the safest big city in the country, and safer than most mid-sized cities, and even though we have the nation's toughest law against illegal possession of a loaded handgun, drug dealers and criminals continue to obtain guns from inter-state traffickers.
According to ATF, 89% of guns used in crimes in New York City last year originated out of state. Many cities around the country find themselves in the same situation. It is clear that we can't solve this problem by working only within our state. We need leadership from Washington to close loopholes that criminals exploit, and we need stronger enforcement of the laws already on the books.
Congress should pass legislation requiring that all sales at gun shows be subject to criminal background checks -- a measure that has the support of Sen. John McCain, President Obama and 83% of gun owners. It is also time for Congress to support the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) with the resources it needs to crack down on illegal sales at gun shows.
The vast majority of gun buyers at gun shows are law abiding citizens. Closing the gun show loophole and increasing resources to help ATF enforce the laws will not detract from anyone's Second Amendment rights. What it will do is send the message that criminals are not welcome at gun shows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQEDvqmAfqg
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I gotta say the guys they showed are at the very least stretching the law. 348 SKS in a year is a private seller?
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I gotta say the guys they showed are at the very least stretching the law. 348 SKS in a year is a private seller?
Probably could nail them easiest on tax evasion. But its not about catching criminals, its about shutting down gun shows.... Thats why its called a "Gun Show loophole" and not a "private sale loophole" or what it really is.... a violation of an already existing federal law.
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With his outstanding record of honesty it's more likely Bloomberg is "stretching" the truth.
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With his outstanding record of honesty it's more likely Bloomberg is "stretching" the truth.
Did you watch the vid, Tom? One guy says he sold 348 SKS in the last year. Another guy says 'we keep a good inventory' and has (my guess) about 60 hand guns for sale of all makes and models. These guys for all the world looked like dealers to me but both said they weren't and no background checks or addresses needed.
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Probably could nail them easiest on tax evasion. But its not about catching criminals, its about shutting down gun shows.... Thats why its called a "Gun Show loophole" and not a "private sale loophole" or what it really is.... a violation of an already existing federal law.
Another one of those "We are our own worst enemy" deals. The ATF can't be everywhere at once so they can't catch the "private sellers" pushing the envelope. These guys can't be showing up with one or two firearms and selling them, they have to have a table to move 350+ in a year. If the show promoters required an FFL for a table with firearms on it and regulated it internally things like that wouldn't happen. A table with a bunch of non-gun stuff wouldn't need a FFL. Anyone who looked like they were a dealer and didn't have the paperwork and prove following the law get asked to leave.
Average Joe wouldn't know the difference between a legit dealer and some idiot with a table of guns and no paperwork. They'll buy from him since his prices are probably lower. If dealers and responsible shooters see a guy with questionable practices we need to let the right people know and clean it up ourselves so Bloomberg et al can't use them against us. Looking the other way is what got us here to begin with.
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I'm going to start this out by saying I'm not an attorney. Also, I would prefer no restrictions on gun ownership but until the current laws are changed or struck down by SCOTUS then we have them on the books.
There were two critical issues I saw in the clip (I think Haz should be OK with my usage of clip in this case). If federal law makes it illegal for private sellers to sell a gun to those who they have reason to suspect could not pass a background check then 19 people at these gun shows should have been held accountable in some form or another. The second is the issue of what criteria defines a business with regard to selling guns. I have no clue from the clip but it suggests that selling 348 guns constitutes a gun business. I don't know.
It looks to me that if the Feds want to clamp down on the so called "loophole" they could get a former felon and have a highly publicized sting operation. Have the guy go around like the one in the clip and suggest that he can’t pass a background check. If the seller sells him a gun without a background check the seller gets busted when the money changes hands.
It seems they could do that under existing law without new legislation. Once they get someone on the sting they could investigate if the seller is a business.
Enforcement of existing law could go a long way to encourage dealers on the fringe into voluntary enforcement. I would rather have existing law enforced rather than have new laws imposed.
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I gotta say the guys they showed are at the very least stretching the law. 348 SKS in a year is a private seller?
Lets think about this for a second...
how many people do you know that own or have owned 100 guns in thier life time? how many at 350?
I know of 2 for the 100+ but they never owned more then 10 or so at one time.
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Sorry you can't reason with LIARS Bumburg.
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Another one of those "We are our own worst enemy" deals. The ATF can't be everywhere at once so they can't catch the "private sellers" pushing the envelope. These guys can't be showing up with one or two firearms and selling them, they have to have a table to move 350+ in a year. If the show promoters required an FFL for a table with firearms on it and regulated it internally things like that wouldn't happen. A table with a bunch of non-gun stuff wouldn't need a FFL. Anyone who looked like they were a dealer and didn't have the paperwork and prove following the law get asked to leave.
Average Joe wouldn't know the difference between a legit dealer and some idiot with a table of guns and no paperwork. They'll buy from him since his prices are probably lower. If dealers and responsible shooters see a guy with questionable practices we need to let the right people know and clean it up ourselves so Bloomberg et al can't use them against us. Looking the other way is what got us here to begin with.
I'm getting a table at the gun show later this month to sell 3 guns, some ammo and a couple of pellet guns. So I need an FFL in your world? No way, Jose.
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If Bloomberg wanted be useful, he would hold his sting out as an example of why we need better enforcement, not new laws. As others have pointed out this would be simple and cheap. Just send that felon in (maybe a tax cheat who gets a reduced sentence for playing along) and bust the sellers. Every PD in the country does this with booze. They send in an uderaged kid with no ID to bars and package stores to buy. If they succeed there is a bust. Its why bartenders check ID (unless you're a hot girl ;D). They know that making that extra $10 could cost them their license so they don't. ATF could do this at gunshows for pennies. Bloomberg knows it. but he doesn't care because he wants the shows closed and guns banned. This is all disingenuous bs.
FQ13
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If Bloomberg wanted be useful, he would hold his sting out as an example of why we need better enforcement, not new laws. As others have pointed out this would be simple and cheap. Just send that felon in (maybe a tax cheat who gets a reduced sentence for playing along) and bust the sellers. Every PD in the country does this with booze. They send in an uderaged kid with no ID to bars and package stores to buy. If they succeed there is a bust. Its why bartenders check ID (unless you're a hot girl ;D). They know that making that extra $10 could cost them their license so they don't. ATF could do this at gunshows for pennies. Bloomberg knows it. but he doesn't care because he wants the shows closed and guns banned. This is all disingenuous bs.
FQ13
You would be amazed at how many people will sell booze/ cigs to people under age. I have a freind that is 23, but she looks 16, she is the person that goes in to buy stuff. From what she says, its 1/3 that will sell you cigs and about 1 in 5 that will sell you booze.