The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: ericire12 on October 13, 2009, 01:19:19 PM
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This dude at least has one foot in reality.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tim-taliaferro/chicagos-handgun-ban-has_b_312764.html
Chicago's Handgun Ban Has Little To Do With Gun Violence
It's enticing to think that the Supreme Court agreeing late last month to settle once and for all the legality of Chicago's handgun ban will have some major effect on crime in Chicago, but in all likelihood it won't.
The court's decision to finally weigh in comes at a time when neither gun rights advocates nor gun control proponents are satisfied with the current state of things. Opponents point to the city's second-highest-in-the-nation murder rate and say the ban isn't working. Proponents of the ban say it doesn't work perfectly because it isn't big enough -- not tough enough on dealers or with too many holes in the tracking process.
You can argue the merits and legality of a handgun ban in the abstract until you are blue in the face, but what's clear from the 27 years it has been in existence is that Chicago's ban does not work the way it was intended.
It makes it harder for the public to get handguns, but not for criminals to get them. One of the most common refrains heard from gun rights advocates is that bans create a situation where criminals have handguns and law-abiding citizens do not. Surely, that's not the situation policy makers had in mind when they drafted the legislation.
Now, that's not to say there are no arguments for having one. Law enforcement agencies overwhelmingly favor bans because it allows them to arrest criminals just for having handguns on them. Legalize handguns and they can no longer arrest people just for walking down the street carrying a piece.
But there's no question criminals can get handguns if they want them.
I once set out to see just how hard it would be to buy a gun illegally in Chicago. I went to see Father Bruce Wellems, pastor of Holy Cross Church in Back of the Yards, and he told me he knew exactly where to go to find a buyer. I decided to first call the Chicago Police Department and ask if they knew about this spot (they did) and if so, why they didn't shut it down (because a new dealer would show up the next day).
They warned me not to go ahead with my journalistic exercise and try to buy a gun, in part because it was dangerous and also because if I actually managed to buy one and then wrote about it, they would have all the evidence they needed to arrest and convict me.
So I didn't buy a handgun, but I'm convinced that if I needed one tomorrow I could get it.
The fundamental problem with gun bans is that they must be comprehensive and powerful to have any chance of working. The one kind of ban that could ever work is the kind the founder's feared when they wrote the Second Amendment.
Chicago's handgun ban is easily undermined by driving outside the city limits. Some municipalities add waiting periods, but if you're willing to wait a couple of weeks you can get one easily enough.
In Illinois, most guns used in crimes are handguns. Of the guns recovered from Illinois crime scenes, far more come from inside Illinois than from any other state.
When I asked Special Agent Thomas Ahern of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms about this phenomenon, he said something illuminating: "All guns start out legal. It's somewhere down the road where they become illegal."
The justices may want to keep that in mind as they weigh Chicago's handgun ban. If illegal handguns are being bought legally, then what really is the ban accomplishing?
Regardless of whether there's a ban or not, criminals will have guns. Those who fear that repealing the ban will lead to a spike in the number of guns on the street should look to Washington, D.C.
A year after its ban was struck down only 550 residents have registered handguns with the police. And midway through 2009, the city's homicide rate was down from the year before.
The real question is what if anything can be done to stop gun violence.
And I seriously doubt the justices have an answer for that.
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The real question is what if anything can be done to stop gun violence.
BALDERDASH! The answer is agressive enforcement of existing laws.
In the 11-years since Richmond, VA put Project Exile in place it has proven that aggressive enforcement of existing gun laws can reduce crime. Prior to Project Exile, Richmond ranked in the top five murder-per-capita rates for the country. In the first year the crime rate dropped 65%. Over the years Project Exile has helped to reduce violence done by people using a gun in Richmond, Virginia by 40 percent, according to federal and city officials.
From an article titled – “Project Exile nets 523 convictions, 10,000 guns”
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090930/NEWS01/909300334
With the slogan "You + Illegal Gun = Prison," Exile is the one program many local leaders say actually works in fighting violent crime because it takes the guns off the street and puts the illegal gun-holders in jail.
"We've had many programs such as Zero Tolerance, Walking with Pride... but we want to make sure Project Exile remains," said Rochester Police Chief David Moore.
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"The real question is what if anything can be done to stop gun violence."
Answer: Arm every law abiding citizen. Criminals are cowards. They don't like incoming fire. And as an added bonus, when we just start waxing these thugs, we will free up the court systems, and solve overcrowding in the jails at the same time.
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Does anyone have references for how much of Chicago's (or pick your favorite big city with strict gun laws) "gun violence" is actually criminal-on-criminal violence?
And, yes, I understand that even with criminal-on-criminal violence there are still a lot of innocents involved and my heart goes out to those victims. Not so much the criminal victims.
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BALDERDASH! The answer is agressive enforcement of existing laws.
In the 11-years since Richmond, VA put Project Exile in place it has proven that aggressive enforcement of existing gun laws can reduce crime. Prior to Project Exile, Richmond ranked in the top five murder-per-capita rates for the country. In the first year the crime rate dropped 65%. Over the years Project Exile has helped to reduce violence done by people using a gun in Richmond, Virginia by 40 percent, according to federal and city officials.
From an article titled – “Project Exile nets 523 convictions, 10,000 guns”
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090930/NEWS01/909300334
With the slogan "You + Illegal Gun = Prison," Exile is the one program many local leaders say actually works in fighting violent crime because it takes the guns off the street and puts the illegal gun-holders in jail.
"We've had many programs such as Zero Tolerance, Walking with Pride... but we want to make sure Project Exile remains," said Rochester Police Chief David Moore.
You are not thinking this through. Saying "gun violence" is like Hearing TAB start talking about "hammer building". It's just one of several tools in his shop.
If every projectile weapon on the planet vanished over night, Not even a sling shot exists at 6 AM. How long do you think that would slow down the VIOLENT crimes ?
How about YOU + illegal gun (stolen/forbidden ) stuff = JAIL
YOU + VIOLENT CRIME = JAIL
YOU + ARMED "VICTIM" = ;D
They say that criminals commit X number of crimes during their career's. By limiting private ownership of guns you are interfering with the "natural selection" process of "thinning the herd" this not only weeds out the fools, and lowers the average number of crimes. It also makes the remainder a LOT less brazen.
Violent crime, might best be attacked by effective anti gang programs like REAL punishment, something like enforcing the three strikes law.
Prison sentences that actually MEAN something.
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You are not thinking this through. Saying "gun violence" is like Hearing TAB start talking about "hammer building". It's just one of several tools in his shop.
If every projectile weapon on the planet vanished over night, Not even a sling shot exists at 6 AM. How long do you think that would slow down the VIOLENT crimes ?
How about YOU + illegal gun (stolen/forbidden ) stuff = JAIL
YOU + VIOLENT CRIME = JAIL
YOU + ARMED "VICTIM" = ;D
They say that criminals commit X number of crimes during their career's. By limiting private ownership of guns you are interfering with the "natural selection" process of "thinning the herd" this not only weeds out the fools, and lowers the average number of crimes. It also makes the remainder a LOT less brazen.
Violent crime, might best be attacked by effective anti gang programs like REAL punishment, something like enforcing the three strikes law.
Prison sentences that actually MEAN something.
Tom, I think you flew off the handle without knowing what you are talking about. Research “Project Exile” on Google. It is exactly what you’re pontificating about. It is a program of aggressively prosecuting gun violations in Federal Court.
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Tom, I think you flew off the handle without knowing what you are talking about. Research “Project Exile” on Google. It is exactly what you’re pontificating about. It is a program of aggressively prosecuting gun violations in Federal Court.
No, I wasn't flying off the handle, I think Project Exile is a great tool. My point was the target of all this legislation , Comment , and emotion should be "violent criminals" in general. Not JUST based on their proffered tool.
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Does anyone have references for how much of Chicago's (or pick your favorite big city with strict gun laws) "gun violence" is actually criminal-on-criminal violence?
And, yes, I understand that even with criminal-on-criminal violence there are still a lot of innocents involved and my heart goes out to those victims. Not so much the criminal victims.
Most of the crime is criminal on criminal. In fact if you include the Chicago PD in one of those categories, I would say just about 100% No sources, just lived there for too long.
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Most of the crime is criminal on criminal. In fact if you include the Chicago PD in one of those categories, I would say just about 100% No sources, just lived there for too long.
That has been my presumption (and I believe the common wisdom) but I'd be curious to see data to that end.
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Crime in general. ;
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/il/chicago/crime/