The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: david86440 on October 17, 2009, 07:35:48 PM
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(Oct. 17) -- A Pennsylvania firefighter who put an American flag sticker on the front of his locker has been suspended without pay for refusing to take the Old Glory decal down.
James Krapf, along with nearly a dozen other Chester, Pa. firefighters, were ordered to remove personal items from the outside of their lockers -- a violation of department policy, MyFoxPhilly.com reported.
Krapf refused to do so and the department suspended him Thursday. So far, he's the only one on forced leave.
"I shouldn't have to remove the flag of the country I believe in. I love my country," Krapf told the Fox affiliate.
The department directed firefighters to keep the outside of their lockers undecorated after some employees took offense to a racially-motivated cartoon posted last summer.
Department officials told The Philadelphia Inquirer that banning any decor from lockers was the only way to prevent fighting among employees.
"The directive says 'everything,' " Capt. John Barbato, vice president of the department's union, told the newspaper. "I never would've thought the American flag would be included in that."
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It's a sad day when they compare our great country's flag to a racist cartoon.
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Yea, it seems that the policy is doing wonders to avoid fighting within the department at this point.
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he was told to do something, didn't do it and got suspended becuase of it...
um, what the prob here?
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Rule put in place due to racial slur - he has our Flag on display (the same flag that is on his uniform and hanging in front of the station house) - Firefighter expressing himself under his First Amendment Rights - inappropriate interpretation of a rule concerning "decorations"
I think his union will have all the help they want from the ACLU in getting this guy back on duty with what ever he wants.
Another example of stupid rules being enforced by stupid people and being supported by ... >:(
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First the Bible, now Old Glory. Disturbing trend. All nationalities to be dissolved into one. Change you can't believe in.
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Yet another example of "zero tolerance" policy that does nothing but is in place simply to cover bureaucratic asses.
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Yet another example of "zero tolerance" policy that does nothing but is in place simply to cover bureaucratic asses.
You missed why he was suspended, it was not for having the flag decal, it was for not fallowing orders.
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Yeah, I got that part. The "orders" he was not "fallowing" was a "zero tolerance" policy that said nothing could be put on the locker. Was the department within their rights for suspending him? Yes, even if it was harsh or unevenly applied. There is a lot missing from the story that may or may not have justified his suspension while the others were not suspended. I was commenting that it was a policy designed to cover the bureaucrats asses. Those types of policies are often shields that bad management hides behind when they make stupid decisions or non-decisions.
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You missed why he was suspended, it was not for having the flag decal, it was for not fallowing orders.
I really, really hate to say this, but legally speaking TAB is 100% right. You can have a policy saying people can post stuff on their lockers. You can have a policy saying they can't. What you cannot have is a policy saying that people may only post stuff we approve of. That simply will not fly.
FQ13
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You missed why he was suspended, it was not for having the flag decal, it was for not fallowing orders.
I really, really hate to say this, but legally speaking TAB is 100% right. You can have a policy saying people can post stuff on their lockers. You can have a policy saying they can't. What you cannot have is a policy saying that people may only post stuff we approve of. That simply will not fly.
FQ13
AAARRRGGGHHH I have to agree with both of them. I've often seen places where the rules were nothing on the OUT side of you Locker. Nothing, is generaly excepted to mean, zero, zip, nada, zilch, nought, none.
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Ah Jeez!
OK...I'm a fireman. We have a policy saying what you can have on your locker, what stickers you can put on your helmet. It spells it out pretty clearly.
Fire Departments are paramilitary. You follow orders. If you don't follow orders that order better have been dangerous (as in it would have resulted in injury or death had it been carried out) illegal or against the union contract affecting wages, hours, working conditions. Otherwise you are insubordinate.
If this is a Union shop then there seems there was no progressive discipline. It sounds like it went straight from "no, I'm not removing that sticker" to "you are suspended". Progressive discipline is your verbal warning, then written warning, then suspension leading to possible termination. If the members of this department are in an IAFF Local then I wouldn't want to be on the department side of this issue. If this department is not a Union shop then the fireman is going to have a hard go of defending himself here.
I know we hate to agree with TAB and FQ....but they are somewhat correct here. The stupid policy notwithstanding.
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He may not be following orders, or as you put it fallowing, but there is a time it take a stand for what is right when you are being ordered to do wrong. A general order was put out to do something, he left his flag in place, and a person wanting to flex their authority applied a rule on an item that hopefully it wasn't meant for. Remember that this rule was put in place because of a racial issue.
In this case the firefighter needs to be reinstated with back pay and a general apology from the department, and those enforcing the rules need to take common sense training.
This was a stand that needed to be taken, and I applaud Firefighter Krapf for his actions. I would publicly support him in any fight he has in this.
We just had an issue here where a Fire Chief made a call within his power, and a council appointed committee had an issue with it. They tried to remove him from not only his office but from the department. I was among many that supported the Chief, and I was disappointed when he accepted an 18 day suspension and read an apology written by the City Council. However, I learned that he did it to preserve peace in the community, because with his record and respect within the community he knew that a continued fight would have caused the entire city structure to be torn down by the public. He did the right thing, and now we can only hope that the citizens of Windom, MN do their job in the next round of elections and unseat the czar wanna bes.
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(Oct. 17)
The department directed firefighters to keep the outside of their lockers undecorated after some employees took offense to a racially-motivated cartoon posted last summer.
Department officials told The Philadelphia Inquirer that banning any decor from lockers was the only way to prevent fighting among employees.
"The directive says 'everything,' " Capt. John Barbato, vice president of the department's union, told the newspaper. "I never would've thought the American flag would be included in that."
Meh. I would have removed the flag and then sanded the feckin' paint off the locker. 'Everything' is 'everything, and paint is 'decor', after all.
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he is lucky he got a warning. If he was my employee, I would have said this "remove the decal by start of work tomarrow"
If he didn't comply, he would be fired.
When I say to do something, you will either do it, or you will be fired. its that simple.
Is that harsh? maybe, but thats the way it is in MY company.
I'm its not really that hard to figure you, the FD ( the people really) own the locker, they say don't put stickers on them, you don't put a sticker on them. There is a very good reason for this policy, when you remove stickers, some times you remove the paint= they have to be repainted= $$$$$. I painted lots of lockers, most newer lockers are either painted with a paint that resists tagers or are powder coated... either way they have to be striped by chemicals or media blasted before they can be painted. you really don't want to know what that costs.
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"you really don't want to know what that costs."
Sure I do. :) Hmm, I wonder if anyone took all the stickers off of my old locker?
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he is lucky he got a warning. If he was my employee, I would have said this "remove the decal by start of work tomarrow"
If he didn't comply, he would be fired.
When I say to do something, you will either do it, or you will be fired. its that simple.
Is that harsh? maybe, but thats the way it is in MY company.
Hey TAB,
I agree that an employee has to do what they are told to do, but you must be a real AHOLE to work for.
I always thought it was more important to earn the respect of my employees then to have them fear me. You can get a lot more work out of them through mutual respect.
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I've never had a complaint about being harsh/strick/ a SOB from a employee.
Just the opposite, infact. Other then some that I've fired very quickly, most of those were union members that I picked up at union hall for more hands. They were either lazy, or were not up to thier titles.
I tend to hire people that are like myself, extremely profesional ( AKA anal) and take a real pride in thier work. I will be right there next to you working. For the most part, I almost never have to ask/tell my employees to do anything. They know what to do and when to do it.
In this case, the guy violated policy( strike one), he was told to remove it( thats strike two) then didn't do it( thats strike three, he is out). In this case I would have fired him after he refused to remove it, he was warned once( policy, I'm sure he signed it something saying he read the policy) he was told once.... thats two "warnings"
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I can see both sides of our argument here. As a US citizen I see the ridiculous situation of CYA going on here with the total lack of common sense brought on because of the desire not to make a common sense decision. The don't want to allow it because they don't want to have the fight that the the flag is ok but the .......... (enter whateve symbol is next) that the next guy puts on his locker isn't.
On the other hand, as an employer, when I tell my employee's to do, or not do something, I expect that directive to be followed. I have a reason for saying that and that is what I expect in my employees. I do however listen to their ideas and expect them to use a little common sense. Personally, I don't make stupid, nonsensical rules and then apply them with an iron fist. Good employees are too hard to come buy.
That FD should have said, "Don't put offensive material on the outside of your lockers" followed by "If the US Flag is offensive to you, then go back to your own country!" ;D
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That FD should have said, "Don't put offensive material on the outside of your lockers" followed by "If the US Flag / Aussie is offensive to you, then go back to your own country!" ;D
Exactly!!!
Basically, people who don't want to be Australians ( or Americans ) and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off
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he was told to do something, didn't do it and got suspended becuase of it...
um, what the prob here?
Ummmm.... you sir need to get over your tunnel vision.....
New Forum rule:
Anyone from the great state of California can no longer use the "O" key when typing a reply in any thread.
There, you have been told to do something. Whats the problem here?
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your not paying me. ;D
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your not paying me. ;D
(http://www.boondockfans.com/forum/img/smilies/smiley-ban.png)
;D
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He got you on that one Eric ;D
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YOU'RE........
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He got you on that one Eric ;D
I win no matter what..................... He lives in Kalifornistan
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I win no matter what..................... He lives in Kalifornistan
Kalifornistan...............I'm going to use that.
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I win no matter what..................... He lives in Kalifornistan
No, you win because YOU DON"T live in Califonistan ;D
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This I just received from a firefighter blog I subsribe to....
Chester (PA) Firefighters and Fire Commissioner James Johnson reached a mutual agreement today and ended their conflict, partially over the display of an American flag on a locker, personalities and very high emotions.
A rally of just under 100 folks protested outside the fire house in support of FF James Krapf this morning. As you know, FF Krapf was suspended last week after he refused to remove an American flag sticker off the outside of his locker under a newly implemented department directive. The "new' directive required firefighters to remove all decorations off their lockers and was ordered by The Commish after one of his other 61 firefighters posted a cartoon that others found offensive. After today's meeting, Commissioner Johnson, FF Krapf and union leaders announced that FF Krapf would be reinstated and the directive would be rewritten to allow displays in line with the U.S. Flag Code.
How 'bout that!?
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Tab's wrong (as usual), FF Krapf is reinstated, and the directive is being rewritten - the smart way to go.
All is right in that little corner of the world. Now for the rest of this effed up planet . . .
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Great news!
Back to the argument ...
Tab,
You are in private business, and own your own private business. You can do whatever you want with rules and such as long as you don't get caught running a foul of the law. You can repress free speech, expression of religion, the Right to bear arms, be a single race or sex or sexual orientation employer, require english only, etc. This was a governmental agency, and they must transparently not discriminate or infringe on Rights. The firefighter had discussed this with whoever had issues with it, but no where does it state that he received due process until this release today. This should have happened after his first discussion!
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Fantastic! Once again good news. Cooler heads prevailed OR extreme pressure from the FF's supporters? God Bless our firefighters.
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Tab's wrong (as usual), FF Krapf is reinstated, and the directive is being rewritten - the smart way to go.
All is right in that little corner of the world. Now for the rest of this effed up planet . . .
You forgot to point out that this also came down to a pissing contest and was not about "policy" at all.
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and the boss caved too the union...
thats exactly why CA is fucked up. They will give into the unioncartel ever single time.
Its not about the flag, its about not fallowing directives after being told to do something.
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The Union had them by the short and curlies. No due process which is standard in every MOU negotiated by IAFF shops. Then the Union does what they do best. Find a mutually acceptable solution to a problem or issue without going into lawsuits or grievance proceedings. IAFF are not thugs, never have been thugs. and will always find a solution to a problem or issue as long as the local government and FD management allow them to participate in the process. If the Commish had consulted the Union prior to issuing his policy, this never would have happened.