The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Kilroy on October 17, 2009, 10:13:30 PM
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Just handled the newest Glock this week. A Glock 22 with changeable grip arch (small, medium & large, with small the permanent default), reversible magazine release (new, somewhat larger rectangular size to the button), a new Rough Texture Frame style (less abrasive then the first iteration), older style grasping grooves on the rear of the slide and a dual (spring w/in spring) recoil spring assembly.
The magazine is also double notched in order to accommodate those who reverse the magazine release, and still has the center notch for the ambidextrous release (for those guns so equipped).
Recoil spring has a different feel to it, and I suspect is meant to slow the slide velocity. Up to around 1,400 rounds with a light attached.
Figure delivery at/after SHOT, then the G17 version, followed by the 19/23.
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Did you like it?
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Jumping on the M+P design feature bandwagon I see,....
::)
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Heresy! Why mess with perfection? I guess the ambi features are nice. Honestly though, I really prefer my old Gen 1 17 and 19s straight grip without the finger grips to my new Gen 3 G26. Having changeable grips is nice I supose, but its stuff to go wrong. In my opinion, what makes the Glock so good is simplicity and a minimum number of parts. Nothing to break, nothing to screw up. It just goes bang, always. Its the semi auto version of a Smith J frame. Every "feature" they add takes them away from what made them the default gun for LEOs in the first place. If I wanted to add features I'd have bought a 1911. KISS is a classic for a reason. >:(
FQ13 who is officially an old fart. Hey you kids, get off my lawn! ;D
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Jumping on the M+P design feature bandwagon I see,....
::)
They are all jumping on the WALTHER P99 Design. M&P Stole it first probably because Walther is imported to the US by Smith and Wesson
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Jumping on the M+P design feature bandwagon I see,....
::)
Check the history of the 1911 and a choice in mainspring housings.
Did you like it?
Yes. I really liked the new texture on the frame. Polymer seems to be a bit different as well. I'll be waiting for the 17 and 19 to be out, then I'll be an owner.
There is also some interesting re-inforcement of the slide, below the breech face. Likely some other changes not so readily apparent. The magazines had a #9 follower.
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Haven't even seen one yet! I already know that I want a grip without finger grooves and a backstrap that makes it point more like a 1911 than a revo (without having to have custom grip work)!
JMHD
Richard
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I heard rumors of this on other gun forums..... Where did you get to see these? How much closer to a 1911 style grip angle is it now?
The evolution has begun:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=2105.0
;)
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I heard rumors of this on other gun forums..... Where did you get to see these? How much closer to a 1911 style grip angle is it now?
The evolution has begun:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=2105.0
;)
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That was insightful. ???
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That was insightful. ???
Oops! The board didn't let me post. What I was going to say was that if I wanted a 1911 grip I'd buy a 1911. The Glock fits me perfectly. I'm tired of companies getting a product right and then "improving" it to the point that its not as good as it started out being. I've seen this happen too many times. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Glocks are good enough for what they're for. Leave the design alone.
FQ13
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I heard rumors of this on other gun forums..... Where did you get to see these? How much closer to a 1911 style grip angle is it now?
Saw and handled one sample. Retains Glock grip angle, though with the changeable arches it may vary slightly.
It's getting fired by a lot of LE agencies.
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Saw and handled one sample.
Where?
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Primary reason you see good products change is to keep sales moving. If everybody buys a light bulb, it works great, never breaks... GE wouldn't be in business after a few years (much less giving top dogs million dollar bonus's!). Soon everyone would have all they need and your unable to move enough product to keep your doors open for business. :(
Now if you can make some little trendy change to the product and call it "new and improved"... NOBODY want's "yesterday's", "old style" light bulb!!! $$$ CHA CHING! $$$
I was in sales for four years, it taught me a LOT about how American works, and why we're the biggest "consumers" in the world market.
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Primary reason you see good products change is to keep sales moving. If everybody buys a light bulb, it works great, never breaks... GE wouldn't be in business after a few years (much less giving top dogs million dollar bonus's!). Soon everyone would have all they need and your unable to move enough product to keep your doors open for business. :(
Now if you can make some little trendy change to the product and call it "new and improved"... NOBODY wants "yesterday's", "old style" light bulb!!! $$$ CHA CHING! $$$
I was in sales for four years, it taught me a LOT about how American works, and why we're the biggest "consumers" in the world market.
You make a good point, but I dont think this would be a gimmick. By adding interchangeable backstraps Glock would actually be addressing a major design flaw -- the grip angle.
One of the biggest complaints about Glocks is the less then desirable grip angle. It is also probably the biggest deciding factor that pushes potential customers away from Glock and into purchasing a fantastic plastic of another manufacturer. By giving the gun interchangeable backstraps which would provide the user a more traditional grip angle, Glock is opening up their product line to buyers that in the past have fondled and passed on a purchase because the gun did not fit their hand. It is a small monetary investment into each gun that would allow them to market to people that like the current grip angle as well as those who desire a grip angle something closer to a 1911 style. There is still a large untapped market out there who would buy a Glock in a second if the gun would fit their hand.... Not to mention new gun owners that have not even fondled a Glock to begin with.
I personally think this would be a brilliant marketing move. Why would any company not want to make their product as appealing as possible to consumers? Its a small monetary investment that would do a great deal to increase sales.
*One company is already making these:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4147.0
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Every piece of equipment from just about any manufacturer is going to have improvements over time. Some are more obvious than others. If a problem is identified it is fixed. I'm willling to bet that if you were to pull a Gen 1 and a Gen 3 Glock apart there would be more differences than just the frame design.
Beretta has been doing that for years with the 90 series. The locking block and barrel lugs have been radiused differently and some metal parts have been replaced with polymer. Also some of the metal parts that were machined are now MIM'd. Externally most people wouldn't notice the evolution unless they knew what to look for.
As for the new frame, good on Glock. Like Eric points out, that has been the one major problem that has plauged Glock from the beginning. I'm honestly surprised it took them this long to do it. My oldest can't get her hand placement right with the Glocks but doesn't have a problem with a 1911 or M&P straight from the factory, or a Robar recountoured Glock.
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It should be a good thing for all of us in that not only will the guy's who didn't like the old grips get what they were looking for, but the used gun racks will soon be flooded with guns at great prices from those who swap out for the newer model!
I'd just warn against falling into the "have to have the latest thing" trap.
Either way, it adds to the number of quality sidearms in legal owners hands. GO GLOCK GO! ;D
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It should be a good thing for all of us in that not only will the guy's who didn't like the old grips get what they were looking for, but the used gun racks will soon be flooded with guns at great prices from those who swap out for the newer model!
There you are right. When I was young and dumb, I was a gear freak. I had to have the newest and best backpack, flyrod etc. What I have since learned is that today's middle of the road model was yesterday's next great thing. If you buy a proven design from a quality company you can save a lot of money by buying halway down the page in the catalouge rather than looking at the top, and never notice the difference. Good enough is good enough.
FQ13 who no longer has to worry about credit card bills
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UPDATE: It looks to be official
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/22/glock-gen-4-said-to-be-coming-next-year/
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/glock_4thgen_01-tfb1.jpg)
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2009/10/21/fourth-generation-glock-adjustable-grips/
Glock has officially started teasing to the fourth generation of their pistols due in 2010.
Calling it the “Next Generation of Perfection,” the fourth generation Glock pistols are expected to feature an interchangeable backstrap, or adjustable grip, to accommodate a wide range of hand sizes.
Way back on June 9, I broke the information on the adjustable grip Glock after a Glock rep leaked the information to police supplier, GT Distributors at the National Association of Police Equipment Distributors (NAPED) conference.
The fourth generation Glocks are rumored to have a textured finish that is not nearly as aggressive as the RTF2 introduced at the 2009 SHOT Show. The new finish is said to be rougher than the prior generations, but easier on the hands and clothes than the RTF2. The RTF2 was found by some people to wear through uniform shirts and other clothing too quickly.
While adjustable grip pistols are not new, Glock has resisted adding this feature to its guns. However, with the significant gains Smith & Wesson has made into the police market with the M&P pistols, Glock is likely feeling the pressure to add interchangeable backstraps to better appeal to the law enforcement market. Many agencies switching to the M&P have stated that the ability to match the gun to the officer’s hand size was a major factor in choosing Smith & Wesson over Glock.
The Gen 4 Glocks will be seen at the 2010 SHOT Show, and we will be there for full coverage.
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Primary reason you see good products change is to keep sales moving.
This past year saw Glock in the hundred thousand+ range for back orders. Good business sense keeps the business stable in addressing the demand for products. That is, sell what you can actually make and service. With an incredible banner year for sales under their belt, the claim that market pressure for features such as changeable grip arches rings a bit hollow.
Where? (Did I see this?)
I was in the right place at the right time, and know the right people.
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This past year saw Glock in the hundred thousand+ range for back orders. Good business sense keeps the business stable in addressing the demand for products. That is, sell what you can actually make and service. With an incredible banner year for sales under their belt, the claim that market pressure for features such as changeable grip arches rings a bit hollow.
I was in the right place at the right time, and know the right people.
I call BS on the back orders..... I have never ever walked into a gun shop and was not able to find brand new Glocks in any and every caliber available for sale..... They are everywhere (you know, aside from Wal-Mart). Very easy to find and very easy to buy. Not too many waiting lists out there.
Additionally, If they are not introducing interchangeable back straps to meet a consumer demand then why do it? What you are saying makes no sense..... A proper business model alone will do nothing to keep the business afloat if they are not continually filling the consumers needs/wants. It doesnt matter if they are selling what they can "make and service" if there is little or no demand for the product. I am sorry, but your business 101 is a little flawed.
Once again.... Where? I am not calling you a liar, but I would like to see some tangible evidence of what you are claiming.... Yes, Glock is starting to tease about a reveal at SHOT, but there were internet rumors about back straps and ambidextrous controls back when the RTF came out.
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Eric, I was in a gun shop last spring while the clerk, (a gun guy) was trying to place orders, while I was there he contacted 5 distributors, only one actually had any Glocks, I forget what models and calibers but they were oddballs, no 9MM, no .45 acp, nothing that the guy had orders for.
If you wanted "a Glock" you could Possibly get one. If you wanted a G 17, G19 or any other SPECIFIC model you were SOL.
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However, with the significant gains Smith & Wesson has made into the police market with the M&P pistols, Glock is likely feeling the pressure to add interchangeable backstraps to better appeal to the law enforcement market. Many agencies switching to the M&P have stated that the ability to match the gun to the officer’s hand size was a major factor in choosing Smith & Wesson over Glock.
Glock is playing catch up as M+P has more LEO contracts with its flexible grips and ambi ease.
I own both, and the M+P is worth Glock revisiting what it at first resisted. It's called sales...
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I call BS on the back orders.....
I think I have access to a bit more information then you. Glock has shared there back order situation with a few folks outside the industry. As to the new gun...I've held it and changed the grips on it. It has been undergoing some range testing at a major metro agency.
At this time, the current Advantage Arms kits will not work with the new gun. This due to changes in spring rates.
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It's Glocktoberfest at Turners...... over 250 Glocks in stock!
16 models to choose from.
http://www.turners.com/engage/displayads.php
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I love the grip on my M&P's, but I also love the trigger on the Glock. I used to own a model 23 Gen 1. I considered it to be my first REAL handgun. But I sold it in favor of a Sig229 cause I never really liked the grip that well, and compared to the Sig it just didn't shoot it as good. When I was looking at the M&P's and that grip is the only thing that kept me from going back to Glock. If they fix it with the Gen 4 I will go back to them! And for FQ13 and the others that say if it aint broke don't fix it. This is America where we all still (at least for now) have choices and if you don't like to new change their will still be thousands of G1-G3 Glocks on the market for you to choose from! And though I haven't seen or handled one I'll guess one of the new grip sizes will probably match the old Glocks. There isn't much to break on an M&P grip so I'll doubt the new Glock will be much different. After all they build a very durable product to start with. My local store usually has plenty of glocks (15 or more in the case) but not always do they have all of the models in stock. Last winter my buddy was looking all over for model 19 and not one of the 8 stores in my area had one. I think I would love to have a Model 20 Gen 4! I really want to try a 10MM. ;D And don't forget that Glock offers special LEO and Military pricing! ;D ;D I think Paramedics and Fireman qualify too!
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I love the grip on my M&P's, but I also love the trigger on the Glock.
Don't think I ever heard that one before. ;D
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It's true. Out of the box Glock has one of the best DA triggers on the market!
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I agree. The breakpoint is what makes it for me. I don't like a long and steady pull. I like something that lets me take up the slack. When it tightens, then it will go bang. For me, this helps with accuracy. Your mileage may vary.
FQ13
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Not to get in a pissing contest or anything, but out of box glock triggers suck. Even glock fanboys admit this. Lets just say it isn't exactly what they are known for (for the good anyway).
I'm not bashing glocks, just keeping it real. ;)
I much prefer the trigger on the M&P, thats why I bought one, or else I would have a glock. Personal preference, though.
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I am of 2 minds on this, as previously stated, I told Chris Edwards that interchangeable back straps with varying angles and depth would be an easy and cool thing for the pistols. He ran it by Gaston, and I was told, Gaston thinks its perfect, and no.
I have small hands, so performed grip reductions on my m22 15 yrs ago, crude but effective. Soon after Robar started doing the same thing and now there are lots of smiths making money doing it. I started shooting my m21 with a grip reduction, and it became my main auto pistol, now after many years of shooting it, my m17 and m34 without reductions, seem fine.
You take Dave Sevigny who shoots unmodified frames and VERY WELL. That is where the 2 minds come in. If you shoot a Glock only, and learn the Glock grip, learn the glock trigger, it does work, and work well. But if you shoot multiple pistols, the Glock won't point like you want it to and the trigger 3.5 or more will not behave like you are used to. The trigger is still very usable. I have in the past and still do promote the natural HIGH point of aim of the Glock to be a plus, not a minus, as most casual shooters shoot low under stress, due to flinch. They will have a higher point of impact with a Glock than anything else, and that is a good thing. Instead of pointing to the chest and hitting nothing or a belly shot, they may actually hit the chest.
The market is now being heard and Glock is reacting, after a very long time. The Walther 99 and the M&P heard the requests and introduced this feature, Just like the Japanese car manufacturers, listen to the consumer and give them what they want, not what we want to sell. Cupholders in cars, Silly?? Who drinks coffee while their driving. ;)
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Sounds like the new Glock isn't offering anything that the M&P, XDm, and others don't already have on the market. Except for a poor grip angle.
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Finally got to check out a 4th gen. 17...As I said in my earlier post, don't like the finger grooves but otherwise it's OK. Can't see why the change except to change.
JMHO
Richard
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For the love of......would someone please sneek somewhere and snap a photo of the Gen 4!
Sounds like the new Glock isn't offering anything that the M&P, XDm, and others don't already have on the market. Except for a poor grip angle.
The only thing you get with a glock over the others is glock reliablity. Im also a big fan of the glock short trigger reset.
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I think I have access to a bit more information then you. Glock has shared there back order situation with a few folks outside the industry. As to the new gun...I've held it and changed the grips on it. It has been undergoing some range testing at a major metro agency.
At this time, the current Advantage Arms kits will not work with the new gun. This due to changes in spring rates.
(http://netwrok.us/stuff/dont-worry-sir-im-from-the-internet.jpg)
::)
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UPDATE: This ad is in the Dec 2009 GUNS Magazine
(http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/45659/2896672800100259265S600x600Q85.jpg)
Go here to see it for yourself:
http://gunsmagazine.com/
*Click on the digital edition in the upper right hand corner and then scroll over to page 37
**Interesting wording in the ad..... guess they were feeling some heat and were worried about losing sales.
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Just handled the newest Glock this week. A Glock 22 with changeable grip arch (small, medium & large, with small the permanent default), reversible magazine release (new, somewhat larger rectangular size to the button), a new Rough Texture Frame style (less abrasive then the first iteration), older style grasping grooves on the rear of the slide and a dual (spring w/in spring) recoil spring assembly.
The magazine is also double notched in order to accommodate those who reverse the magazine release, and still has the center notch for the ambidextrous release (for those guns so equipped).
Recoil spring has a different feel to it, and I suspect is meant to slow the slide velocity. Up to around 1,400 rounds with a light attached.
Figure delivery at/after SHOT, then the G17 version, followed by the 19/23.
So how does the new small permanent default compare to the current grip ?
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So how does the new small permanent default compare to the current grip ?
It will be to the standard grip, somewhat as the 21SF is to the regular 21.
Imagine the SF treatment applied to the standard frames.
Does that help?