The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: bluesman001 on October 19, 2009, 03:19:12 PM
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My old lady wants to get a Sig P232 due to its size/weight for carrying as well as fit to her hand. I wanted some input on whether or not this is an appropriate caliber for personal protection (CCW) and home defense. I personally have a Hi-Point C-9, and would love to have a 1911 .45. Please give input and opinions pro or con (in reference to the .380.) Thanks
(This may be in wrong section, please forgive.)
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Has she actually held and handled a P232? They're not that small and they're not that light.
It's better than nothing I guess but since you say it's for the home, I would suggest a more potent caliber and then learn to control it.
Train.....train.....train..... My daughter shoots a midsize Sig P228 with no problems.
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I would class the .380 as the MINIMUM caliber for SD. That being said, a .380 with HP's in the pocket or purse is FAR more protection than the .45 you left home because it's too big or to heavy.
Any quality expanding bullet that will feed reliably should be sufficient
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Has she actually held and handled a P232? They're not that small and they're not that light.
She has, and really digs it. But as you say I've been telling her she'd have to empty the mag or hit just right. Have been steering her towards 9mm or bigger.
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If she's comfortable with it, then she'll learn to use it properly. There have been some quantum advances in .380 ammo these days. Sigs are very accurate shooters and quite easy to become familiar with.
Good luck!
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She has, and really digs it. But as you say I've been telling her she'd have to empty the mag or hit just right. Have been steering her towards 9mm or bigger.
The purpose of CCW is for her to HAVE the gun ALWAYS.
I don't mean to come across as an A--hole to a new member, but like picking the gun it's self and training. The best thing you can do to help her is to shut up. You have to remember that SHE is the one who will be carrying (or not ) that gun.
Which makes her safer, the "marginal" caliber she picked and carries, or the "perfect" self defense gun You chose, and she leaves in a drawer ?
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Tom and Timothy are exactly right..... Probably the best thing you can do is have her fondle as many guns as possible and see what works best for her and what she feels most comfortable with. You can try to continue to push for a 9mm and up caliber, but be sure not to turn her off to a gun that she can and will actually carry.
You might also want to spend a good amount of time figuring out exactly the method in which she will be carrying her CCW..... if it is going to be purse carry -- especially with a purse designed to carry a gun -- you will be able to get away with a few extra ounces in weight. The biggest factor will be what feels most comfortable in her hand and what she shoots best.
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Have you explored revolvers? As everyone has said, bigger is better than smaller, but what you will actually carry is what matters. Better a .22 in the purse than a .44 magnum in the dresser drawer. Still, if 9mm recoil (my personal minimum defensive caliber, your mileage may vary) is a problem, try a .38 revolver. The Smith J frame is a classic for a reason and the Ruger LCR looks good, and Taurus makes some good guns. The thing is, that at least to me, the felt recoil of a revolver is less than a pistol. The noise is worse, but the recoil seems lighter. Have her practice with light .38s and load with a +P JHP for SD. Just a thought.
FQ13
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Rarely do I agree with FQ but.....since the LCR has been approved in MA, I've been eyeballing that little revolver for something to leave at home for the wife. The difference in ME is pretty significant over .380 when loaded with .38 +p ammo.
Just waiting to see what, if any, possible problems it might suffer from before I commit.
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Just to bring another aspect to the posts, (training and practice is fantastic), the big BUT is .380 is still hit or miss as far as quantity of rounds available, and even target ammo prices are much higher than 9 or 38. Hell, 45Colt was cheaper than .380 at the last show I went to .... ???
I have 2 .380's and have had good and bad luck finding ammo.
Can you find a slightly used 9 or 38 revolver and utilize a more "ammo" available ammo?
All things to consider. if she is set on a .380, even after renting a 9 or 38, than find a reliable resource for .380 ammo and get it.
Depending on experience, some instruction for her might also be considered.
Just the .02 cents.
Welcome to DRTV bluesman.
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I agree with TB (and others)....having the gun is key, so getting one she will always have is better than a more potent gun that she might leave behind.
That being said, I also agree with TW's very valid concern.....ammo is a big consideration with respects to the amount of practice that will be required to become familiar enough with the new gun to be proficient enough to CCW reliably with it and depend on it for SD. She'll need to shoot it a lot to learn the gun and be ultimately comfortable enough with it to defend herself.
She will need to put a good many shots downrange and right now and .380 ain't that available .... and what is available ain't cheap.
As others have pointed out, fondle as many as possible....and better yet, research into ranges in the area and see if they rent guns to practice with as many variations as possible.
After shooting a few, she might like a G26 or snubby .38 better.
But, ultimately, as others have rightly pointed out, it is her choice in the end. Get her what she will use and be happy with, and if it is the .380, there are a lot better ammo types being produced for it....you just have to search for it.....I haven't found any in a long while in my area.
Welcome to the forum and good luck and have fun shooting.
8)
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Guys,
Don't let my post count fool you. I've been a member/lurker since 2007. Back when my cable company provided Outdoor TV and others within the "standard" cable package I enjoyed the TV shows Michael and the guys do.
That said, I have had to walk away from this thread and take a breath. I am not/nor will I ever be the kinda guy that forces someone to do what I think is best. I merely know that she is the type that questions "Can I pull the trigger to take a life, even to save my own?" kinda girl. Her biggest hurdle presently is wanting/not wanting (a pistol) and trying to decideabout that. But she was toying with the idea, and a PO friend showed her his P232, peaking her interest in it. I am well aware of the disipline required to intimately know a weapon and the responsibility that comes with it. She has had brief range time with various calibers and is nowhere near making up her mind. I was merely getting feedback about the caliber (as I have read many pro/cons - mostly cons). I agree that I want her to have one that she will actively carry and like.
So please, I apologize if this post seems uppity. Just have my ass-hairs up and don't want you fine folks to get the wrong impression of me. I welcome and appreciate all of the feedback guys, keep em coming!
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No apology needed, bluesman.
I don't think anyone would think you were being uppity.....and I can only speak for myself in saying that I hope you don't think I was talking to you like you were a total novice. I was only pointing out the ammo necessity for training versus the ammo availability issue for the .380.
8)
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Guys,
Don't let my post count fool you. I've been a member/lurker since 2007. Back when my cable company provided Outdoor TV and others within the "standard" cable package I enjoyed the TV shows Michael and the guys do.
That said, I have had to walk away from this thread and take a breath. I am not/nor will I ever be the kinda guy that forces someone to do what I think is best. I merely know that she is the type that questions "Can I pull the trigger to take a life, even to save my own?" kinda girl. Her biggest hurdle presently is wanting/not wanting (a pistol) and trying to decideabout that. But she was toying with the idea, and a PO friend showed her his P232, peaking her interest in it. I am well aware of the disipline required to intimately know a weapon and the responsibility that comes with it. She has had brief range time with various calibers and is nowhere near making up her mind. I was merely getting feedback about the caliber (as I have read many pro/cons - mostly cons). I agree that I want her to have one that she will actively carry and like.
So please, I apologize if this post seems uppity. Just have my ass-hairs up and don't want you fine folks to get the wrong impression of me. I welcome and appreciate all of the feedback guys, keep em coming!
Hell, if you've been here for that long you know we can be a cantankerous bunch. Just let us know you aren't a newbie when asking a pretty basic question and you will get a lot more detailed answers. You give the basics to the new guy, the mind numblingy detailed to someone more experienced. There is,as you know, a lot of good advice to be found here.
FQ13
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Hell, if you've been here for that long you know we can be a cantankerous bunch. Just let us know you aren't a newbie when asking a pretty basic question and you will get a lot more detailed answers. You give the basics to the new guy, the mind numblingy detailed to someone more experienced. There is,as you know, a lot of good advice to be found here.
FQ13
Especially if you can get past the sarcasm, childishness, and general BS................sometimes it takes a good sifter. ;D
Always wondered why I fit in so well here.
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The October Gunsite Newsletter has a discussion about the new line of small .380's. It would be interesting to see the full report.
http://www.gunsite.com/news.html
In a follow-up to our discussion last month on small, easily concealable “pocket pistols”, we had gun writer Wiley Clapp out here testing eight different .380 pistols. He made a noble attempt at trying to satisfy the NRA testing protocol of 5, 5 shot groups at 25 yards but the effort was a failure. These little guns, with their terrible triggers and generally useless sights (if they have any at all) do not lend themselves to group shooting at 25 yards. At more realistic ranges good hits can be made with most of them but there are a couple of precautions you should take before betting your life on one of these little pistols, as either a primary or back-up weapon. In our experience, they are very ammunition sensitive, so you must be certain that your pistol is going to work reliably with the ammunition you intend to carry in it. If one brand of ammunition does not work well, try another. Then again, we found that a couple of the representative pistols hardly worked at all, with several brands of ammunition being tried. Make sure the gun works.
Another issue with these little pistols is that some of them are just plain uncomfortable to shoot. As a matter of fact, a couple of them really hurt. Due to the small size, light weight and, in some cases, poor design, even the little .380 can cause some real pain to the hand when you fire a couple of these. Finally, in my opinion, if you want a little .380 pocket pistol, get either the Ruger or the Kahr and shoot Hornady Critical Defense ammunition in it. Oh, and the Rohrbaugh works well, but do you really want to spend $900 for a pocket pistol?
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The bottom line here is that at personal defense ranges .380 will do the job if the shooter does
his hers. It will give you about half the performance a 9mm will.
I carry a Kel-Tec .32 for deep concealment.... its great to have when you cant carry a gun..... It will give you almost as much performance as a .380, but there is hardly any recoil.... so you might want to give that a look if you want something uber small and recoil is an issue.
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Especially if you can get past the sarcasm, childishness, and general BS................sometimes it takes a good sifter. ;D
Always wondered why I fit in so well here.
Because you are siftless ? ;D
I even checked your sign up date before I replied, and I STILL went off in the wrong direction ;D
In short, .380 is and always has been a "Belly gun", effective at bad breath and across the table distances. The market is currently flooded with products from just about every pistol maker in the modern market but as has been pointed out AMMO is darn hard to find and expensive when it is found, for that reason pretty much ANY other modern caliber would be a better choice.
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The October Gunsite Newsletter has a discussion about the new line of small .380's. It would be interesting to see the full report.
http://www.gunsite.com/news.html
In a follow-up to our discussion last month on small, easily concealable “pocket pistols”, we had gun writer Wiley Clapp out here testing eight different .380 pistols. He made a noble attempt at trying to satisfy the NRA testing protocol of 5, 5 shot groups at 25 yards but the effort was a failure. These little guns, with their terrible triggers and generally useless sights (if they have any at all) do not lend themselves to group shooting at 25 yards. At more realistic ranges good hits can be made with most of them but there are a couple of precautions you should take before betting your life on one of these little pistols, as either a primary or back-up weapon. In our experience, they are very ammunition sensitive, so you must be certain that your pistol is going to work reliably with the ammunition you intend to carry in it. If one brand of ammunition does not work well, try another. Then again, we found that a couple of the representative pistols hardly worked at all, with several brands of ammunition being tried. Make sure the gun works.
Another issue with these little pistols is that some of them are just plain uncomfortable to shoot. As a matter of fact, a couple of them really hurt. Due to the small size, light weight and, in some cases, poor design, even the little .380 can cause some real pain to the hand when you fire a couple of these. Finally, in my opinion, if you want a little .380 pocket pistol, get either the Ruger or the Kahr and shoot Hornady Critical Defense ammunition in it. Oh, and the Rohrbaugh works well, but do you really want to spend $900 for a pocket pistol?
Rohrbaugh is now $1200-$1500
...but a 9x19 pocket pistol is the holy grail!
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Because you are siftless ? ;D
Most certainly. ;D ;D
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Once again, I will agree with Eric. If you are carying in a purse, get the nine. Plenty of mid range models ($550+/-), chreap and available ammo, and more oomph than the .380. Failing that, a .38 will do the job if you want a revolver. There seems to be little reason to buy an underpowered caliber that is finicky about ammo that is expemsive and hard to find. My advice? Buy a Smith J frame or a Glock 26 and call it a day. You won't be sorry either way.
FQ13
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Thanks for understanding, cuz I sure as shit don't want to make any enemies here (at least until after I win the 6 guns - lol).
I appreciate everybody, and no harm/no foul - we're all here for the same thing, to get on everybody else's nerves!!!
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The October Gunsite Newsletter has a discussion about the new line of small .380's. It would be interesting to see the full report.
http://www.gunsite.com/news.html
Thanks for the link, I am reading it now!
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Thanks for understanding, cuz I sure as shit don't want to make any enemies here (at least until after I win the 6 guns - lol).
I appreciate everybody, and no harm/no foul - we're all here for the same thing, to get on everybody else's nerves!!!
You'll have to work a lot harder than that to make enemies on here. ;) ;D
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Bluesman001, you will not make any enemies here but you might be critiqued as to your opinion about self defense about this particular person. Never mind that, as was mentioned, you do not want to go below .380. As for a woman she could be able to handle a .40 Smith and Wesson or a .45 ACP. Both of my boys, 12-14, and my wife can handle both loads with a Glock. My wife carries a Rugur LCP, .380 Caliber, daily. Depends on the impact of the caliber and what fits her hands better. Could be something else, even a Bersa .380. Just like a Walther but cheaper. But they also make them in 9mm and has a bit more stopping power depending on ammo. Not so much recoil.
Recoil seems so much as a consideration of a defense weapon. If you have a Glock 19 or a Glock 26, you have a sub-gun that is in 9 mm and .40 SW respectively. But the Glock 19 has a bit lesser recoil. But if you compare it to a Glock 19 with a Glock 30SF. You are trading for a 9mm and a .45 ACP with a similar amount of recoil with more man-stopping power of the .45 ACP.
Apples and oranges. Just a matter of perspective and what they are able to deal with in recoil perspectively. ;D
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I have heard the slides on those guns are hard to rack for some women. Maybe a Sig 226 would be a better choice. MY girl shoots a G19 and her 92fs and has gotten very good with both. The 380acp is a good round just hard to find, i would rather have a 9mm just beacause theres a lot more choices of SD ammo in 9mm.
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Ping, IMO the Glock .45s have less perceived recoil then the 9mm...... I think it is because they are heavier.
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Ping, IMO the Glock .45s have less perceived recoil then the 9mm...... I think it is because they are heavier.
I can attest to that with my G21, as it is a railroad tie with a grip and trigger. Doubletaps are easily saucer size at 7 yds, and target acquistion during rapid fire, ie plates at the range, , are sweet.
Sorry for the drift,
To the OP, recoil is left for the shooter to determine. My Walther PPK/S, vs. Kel-Tec P3AT are different with the same rounds.
It will be up to her to find the balance of control with regards to recoil, as the .380 for SD will usually require more than one shot.
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To the OP, recoil is left for the shooter to determine. My Walther PPK/S, vs. Kel-Tec P3AT are different with the same rounds.
Yes, but the PPK is more then 3xs the weight and has a longer barrel
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Again, I hate to sound like a broken record, but lose the .380. The only excuse to own one is the size. Given that there are 9mms and even .45s the same size, there is zero excuse to own one. Yes recoil in a 9mm is going to be stronger and you have to train to deal with it for a double tap. But the difference between .380 and 9mm in a pocket pistol is minimal. Neither are fun to shoot at the range, but you just have HTFU and deal with it. Its like going to the dentist. Once you've put a couple of hundred rounds through it you will be familar with the gun. In an actual SD scenario, recoil won't even be felt and is a non-issue as long as you can control muzzle flip. I learned yesterday (see my almost mugged in Charleston thread), the hard way, that SD situations happen quick and close. Forget my agonizing over AK vs AR. I am now considering trading in my 9mm Glocks on .45s. I dealt with two big, very amped up guys at ten feet. No way in hell would I think .380 was enough gun to take both of them in those conditions. You want big, simple, accurate enough, and goes bang every time, wthout having to worry about cocking or safeties or anything else that requiers fine motor skills. Point, click, and boom, large hole results. Choose your brand,pistol or revolver, just don't mess around because the BGs sure won't.
FQ13
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I carry the Ruger in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster when I can't carry anything else. Is it the best choice? NO! But I have no problem under the circumstances. BTW I carry MagTech 77 gr. HP in it.
JMHO
Richard
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I just want to say again, that having had my hand on my gun while being scared stupid in a real life SD situation the other day, that KISS is golden. It was a half second to remember to pop the the snap on my IWB holster. If I had to draw and fire at ten feet, I probably would have flubbed a safety. Whatever make or caliber you get, get something idiot proof, because if you're anything like me, when the adreniline starts pumping, you will be an idiot. Don't sabotage yourself. You will be at close range and have two seconds to make the call. Do not complicate your life, or get an underpowered round.
FQ13 (just my .02)
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I dont know if this has been mentioned yet, but the .380s with the longer barrels (Bersa) will give better penetration and more reliable expansion.
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Bersa makes a great 380. I tell most people to try a .38 special. Taurus and Smith and Wessons are great. Charter arms sells some great little revolvers. I tell my wife that a auto in the purse is not a good thing if you have to shoot through it, a revolver will shoot through it and keep going.
You can load a revolver today and in five years and pick it up and go to town on somebody. I do not want to rely on most springs in most autos when they have been compressed for five years.
I use to carry the old 4506 smith and wesson at the first department I worked for and it was a monster, it was like strapping on a concrete block to your hip. I carried a S&W model 66 for 5 years and loved it but the qualifications have changed and it is hard to qualify with something other than a large capacity auto. I have qualified since the change with my 66 but the cost of ammo made me go with the auto. Department pays for 9mm and 40 ammo not .357
The first thing to have in a gun fight is a gun, the rest will take care of itself.
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Unfortunately way to much emphasis is put on sighted shooting,I'm not saying it's not a needed practice,just that instructors put way to much claim into it.I'm a Vet and I did a tour of duty so I think I'm qualified enough to say that in CQC or Close in SD you are not going to use your sights! This has been proven over and over again in interviews & debriefings of LEO'S in there after action incidents.With the lack of time for reaction,adrenaline dump,stress, & low light conditions just to name a few of the variables that are all happening at the same instant, a person reacting to a threat isn't going to have time to look at there sights,there already behind,trying to catchup,if the threat has a gun,your only chance of catching up is to move off the X as your shooting and that isn't going to allow you the time of locating your front sight.
Proper SD tactics That are going to save your life will not be biased to just one particular technique,it will be a regiment of several techniques that are required for every aspect that may arise,which is why we always must keep on training,Point shooting is just as valuable and as important as aimed shooting,anyone who doesn't think so is a fool and is neglecting to see the value,which will only lead to there own demise.Never discard a tool you can use.
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Unfortunately way to much emphasis is put on sighted shooting,I'm not saying it's not a needed practice,just that instructors put way to much claim into it.I'm a Vet and I did a tour of duty so I think I'm qualified enough to say that in CQC or Close in SD you are not going to use your sights! This has been proven over and over again in interviews & debriefings of LEO'S in there after action incidents.With the lack of time for reaction,adrenaline dump,stress, & low light conditions just to name a few of the variables that are all happening at the same instant, a person reacting to a threat isn't going to have time to look at there sights,there already behind,trying to catchup,if the threat has a gun,your only chance of catching up is to move off the X as your shooting and that isn't going to allow you the time of locating your front sight.
Proper SD tactics That are going to save your life will not be biased to just one particular technique,it will be a regiment of several techniques that are required for every aspect that may arise,which is why we always must keep on training,Point shooting is just as valuable and as important as aimed shooting,anyone who doesn't think so is a fool and is neglecting to see the value,which will only lead to there own demise.Never discard a tool you can use.
Which probably goes a long way toward explaining why 3 cops in a tenement hallway can fire 46 or so rounds and only hit the suspect 3 times.
Only a fool who WANTS to get sued will fire with out SOME sort of aiming, even if it just pushing the muzzle against your attacker.
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For those with a variety of calibers at their disposal, I'm positive the consensus for home defense is larger than a .380 caliber.
However, I carry my Kel-Tec P3AT most of the time, or my Walther PPK/S, in sunny, hot, humid, can't turn the damn AC off yet,..oh nevermind,...
Anyway, if a .380 was all I had for home defense, I darn sure would be making range trips, like several a month if possible, and keeping nothing but top shelf, fresh, premium JHP's in it. Snap caps, drawing techniques, spare mags, a PLAN, safe room, etc,...
Hard to do with ammo being scarce, but I would invest in Golden Sabre's, Speer Gold Dot, Cor-Bon DPX, type stuff for the home,
just like I do on the street.
Keep shooting until the threat has stopped, and be ready to reload and keep going.
And if this doesn't help, if you get a tax refund, buy a caliber that begins with the number .4 ......or at least .357...
.02 cents worth.
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CC is an enormous responsibility and undertaking in and of it self,caliber selection is a very personal depending on each persons criteria. I personally feel .38 spl for cc is as low as one should go,I know all to well it's all determined in your shoot placement,but I also know your bullets dynamics and size are going to matter when your placement is off by a little due to your adrenaline /stress and sitrep at any given occurence!I'd try to get her up to a small 9mm if I were you.
Good Luck!
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I just want to say again, that having had my hand on my gun while being scared stupid in a real life SD situation the other day, that KISS is golden. It was a half second to remember to pop the the snap on my IWB holster. If I had to draw and fire at ten feet, I probably would have flubbed a safety. Whatever make or caliber you get, get something idiot proof, because if you're anything like me, when the adreniline starts pumping, you will be an idiot. Don't sabotage yourself. You will be at close range and have two seconds to make the call. Do not complicate your life, or get an underpowered round.
FQ13 (just my .02)
That's why revolvers are so nice for SD....... Put bullets in cylinder, close cylinder, conceal, draw, fire.
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My old lady wants to get a Sig P232 due to its size/weight for carrying as well as fit to her hand. I wanted some input on whether or not this is an appropriate caliber for personal protection (CCW) and home defense. I personally have a Hi-Point C-9, and would love to have a 1911 .45. Please give input and opinions pro or con (in reference to the .380.) Thanks
(This may be in wrong section, please forgive.)
I can completely relate to your dilema.
My wife is very comfortable with our Glock 17 for home defense, but her everyday carry is a Bersa Thunder CC in .380 acp. She is a very petite lady and she has been exposed to a very wide variety of firearms. She has never been comfortable with any caliber over 9mm.
She trains frequently with her Bersa and she is both very comfortable and very proficient with it. She carries it every day along with an extra magazine. The Glock is actually an easier shooter (less recoil) but it's too big for daily carry. I am very comfortable that my wife can protect herself and my daughter, should the need ever arise. Like so many others have posted, todays .380 ammunition is quite adequate for self defense. I personally believe that confidence, comfort, competence and shot placement are equally as important as caliber selection.
My only concern for your situation would be the current shortage of .380 ammunition and the high prices that you must pay when you do find it. Fortunately we had a large supply of range ammunition prior to the current shortages. Keeping our practice ammo stock at levels we are comfortable with has been very expensive.
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My old lady wants to get a Sig P232 due to its size/weight for carrying as well as fit to her hand. I wanted some input on whether or not this is an appropriate caliber for personal protection (CCW) and home defense. I personally have a Hi-Point C-9, and would love to have a 1911 .45. Please give input and opinions pro or con (in reference to the .380.) Thanks.........
First, she needs to shoot a gun to know if it is good for her. That having been said, if she can't shoot before purchase then she must be confident in the gun to shoot it well...to my mind anyway.
.380 for the home...OK..if you have thin walls and don't want to hit a close neighbor. Good for ladies carry, my wife carries a Kahr PM-90 in 9 mm. .380 is really a 9mm short...I think with premium rounds it is OK. The first gun my wife carried was a Browning BDA with 13 rounds in .380.....so there you go.
For home, I still like the FN Five SeveN round because it will do the job and not overpenetrate like a 9mm ball or other pistol rounds. The 5.7x28 is high velocity, small and built to go away. As far as what the other guys say about accuracy, I did not see the test parameters, but my wife's BDA and my PPK are as accurate as any pistol. The short site radius hurts. If you have time and a rest I lobbed the little .380 rounds in a 5 gallon pail lying sideways at 150 yards.
Then again, wheel guns are real guns as they say. The Ruger GP-100 series is a really nice and smooth gun for a woman...if not heavy. At home that gun filled with .38 Special Gold Dot rounds is very pleasant for women to shoot. The Gold Dot is built for short barreled weapons like snubbies and with a 4 inch barrel the recoil is light and the powder is gone hence reduced flash. Women really do like this combination for shooting.