The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on October 19, 2009, 11:38:23 PM
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So, a few minutes ago I leave my hotel and walk a couple of blocks over to buy Skoal (a filthy habit and apprently a dangerous one). ;) On my way back, these two young AA guys move from their side of the street to mine. They cut me off. One (I'll call him corn row) says he needs to "borrow" a twenty, while his friend (bald guy) is sticking his hands in his hoody. Its about 50 degrees out. I am wering a typical Fl. outfit. jeans and a plain black silk Hawian shirt, untucked, with a zippered fleece piece. I simply said no to the demand for monry and very visibly put my hand on my G26 which is in an RH cross draw IWB and they took off. No weapons, no threats, just showing the gun and all was well. I can't even call the cops as no crime was commited. Still, it woke me the hell up at midnight, and I am very grateful to Eric for reccomending the G26 and SC for their reciprocity with Fl..
FQ13 who still thinks Charleston is a great town, but is freaking out a bit at actually having to basically threaten someone with a gun even if no words were exchanged.
PS The scary part is that I was willing to draw and fire. They were in my face at midnight wanting money and both were bigger than me. It could have gone so wrong, so fast. Luckily, I had control over my mouth and they weren't idiots. Still, I am wide awake
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Well, you won't need coffee for a few days.
And it backs up one of Col. Cooper's statements posted in the Cooper Quotes thread about the 'presence' of a gun.
"We continue to be annoyed by commentators who insist that a certain type of firearm - a 1911 auto, for example - is designed only "to kill people." If we overlook the capacity of the defensive handgun to intimidate an attacker, that idea may be true, but we could respond by saying that a scalpel is only designed "to cut people." But we can hardly expect the logical approach from our entrenched hoplophobes. I cannot believe that all these people are essentially stupid. What they are, I propose, is simply envious. The man who cannot cope automatically envies the man who can."
Jeff Cooper
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Well, that didn't take long. ::) ;D
I guess they could smell "professor" on you. ;)
Glad you're O.K. .................. of course the beating they would have given you is nothing compared to what you get on here. :-*
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Well, that didn't take long. ::) ;D
I guess they could smell "professor" on you. ;)
Glad you're O.K. .................. of course the beating they would have given you is nothing compared to what you get on here. :-*
True, but the weird thing is that 'corn row" and I had a whole conversation without saying a word. He was serious about what he was doing, he didn't just want the twenty. You could see that in his eyes and body language. Whether it was just the cash or they wanted to kick my ass or kill me, you could see he was tensed up and ready to go. Me, he seemed to get the fact that I understood that, was scared and willing to shoot him if he moved wrong. The whole thing just took a few seconds at a distance of about 10 feet (where I will be practicing a lot), but it seemed a lot longer.
FQ13
FQ13
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As a hometown Charleston boy I'm sorry this happened to you. The important thing is you were prepared!!!
-R
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As a hometown Charleston boy I'm sorry this happened to you. The important thing is you were prepared!!!
-R
Welcome aboard and no worriess. I will admit to still being wide awake, but I do like what I have seen of the city, muggers aside. The food is great, the girls are pretty, the beer is cheap and there are tons of Civil War sights to visit. The only downside is thatI came here with my mom. My stepdad was from Charleston and its sort of a pilgirmage for her. I can't tell her what happened as she is not into guns and yet would freak over the incident. So, I took a quiet walk and nothing untoward occurred. ;D All is quiet in the "Holy City". I will drown my sorrows in some East Bay IPA and a bowl of she crab soup. 8)
FQ13
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Two guys from Alcoholics Anonymous?
Seriously though, glad you're OK. Glad you are in a state that you can carry in.
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Two guys from Alcoholics Anonymous?
When I first read it I thought the same thing. :D
Glad you are ok man. If you were not carrying and had gotten yourself mugged you would have never heard the end of it.
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When I first read it I thought the same thing. :D
Glad you are ok man. If you were not carrying and had gotten yourself mugged you would have never heard the end of it.
That s the truth. That Glock paid for itself twice tonight. Once by keeping me from getting my ass kicked or worse, and once by keeping you guys from giveing me endless crap if I ended up in the ER because I wasn't carrying when I could have. $550 of perfection, worth every penny.
FQ13
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I carry a G26 myself, and I can say it has come in handy in the part of town i work in. I dont have a permit but i carry any ways. I would rather carry than go down without a fight. This one night i pulled into a shell station to fill up and got the scare of a lifetime. There i am by myself when 3 MS13 guys come up to and ask me where i was from. I told them I was just filling up and wanted to be left alone. I guess they had other plans, one of them kept on messing with me asking me again where i was from why am i here. I them reached for my G26 and put it along the side of my pants, when they saw what i was packing they changed there minds quik. To say the least that is the closest i 've gotten to using my gun in SD. As of today i have not ventured no where near that station and only fill up during the day near my house.
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Great job man! Thank god your alright. With two of them walking up on you like that it could have gone a LOT worse had they thought it through more. Probably just looking for easy cash and not willing to risk gaining 240 grains of added weight. ;)
Somthing more for you to think about: If you hadn't been able to pay the toll with cash, you may be calling "Cornrow", "Cornhole"! :o
Take that Glock out and treat her to a nice thorough cleaning. She earned it!
Again, glad your OK! And that you got through that without being asked to imitate a pig in anyway! ;D
Maybe God's way of telling you to kick the tobacco habit!
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Glad things turned out okay, FQ.
Here's my quandary.
SC does not recognize GA's CCW.
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shit hay
glad you are ok mate
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Seriously - Glad you're ok and back to spar!
More in keeping with the real me - A Glock ??? Are you sure they were scared, or was it just out of respect for the color they left you alone and well ;)
Seriously - Preparedness ... Priceless!!!
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Good job, FQ.
Glad yer safe!
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Amen to all of the above. You may be a faux libertarian twit, but dammit, you are our faux libertarian twit, and the homies in SC better leave you alone!!! ;)
Glad you're OK, tough run in for sure.
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Amen to all of the above. You may be a faux libertarian twit, but dammit, you are our faux libertarian twit, and the homies in SC better leave you alone!!! ;)
Glad you're OK, tough run in for sure.
Can you feel the love ;)
This is the kind of group that would give you a big strong hug ( and mean every bit of it) and give you a wedgie at the same time ... all except M'ette ... She's the kind that would find a way to get you to go to the doc for a prostate exam out of concern, but she'd get there first and replace his KY with Icy Hot :o
By the way, I forgot to ask how you mom is with this whole episode? After math is often worse than the actual event, and in this case she is facing as much shock as you even without being there. Hope it doesn't ruin the time away!
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Can you feel the love ;)
This is the kind of group that would give you a big strong hug ( and mean every bit of it) and give you a wedgie at the same time ... all except M'ette ... She's the kind that would find a way to get you to go to the doc for a prostate exam out of concern, but she'd get there first and replace his KY with Icy Hot :o
By the way, I forgot to ask how you mom is with this whole episode? After math is often worse than the actual event, and in this case she is facing as much shock as you even without being there. Hope it doesn't ruin the time away!
First of all,not loving the icy hot imagery. >:( ;D
Second Mom will never know. This is her trip, I'm just here to keep her company and I will not let those two idiots spoil it for her. The thing is, there isn't much aftermath. Last night I was a bit freaked out, adrenaline, the realization that I actually would have shot them, and just knowing how close it almost came to that. Now, after breakfast, it is falling into the category of "stuff you learn about yourself and others". Not a fun lesson, but a useful one.
Screw it! On to the Hunnley! ;D ;D
FQ13
PS thanks for the support. I really did need to talk about it and you guys understand.
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Dude! Glad that it turned out okay - could have gotten sideways real quick. It is also good to note that you have no reluctance to escalate if need be. Corn row could probably see that and chose the easy way out.
Again, good job and stay safe.
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Glad your okay. Take care of your Mom, have a good time.
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I guess they could smell "professor" on you. ;)
Probably professor and tourist.
When I first read it I thought the same thing. :D
I knew exactly what he meant..... Charleston can be a very dangerous place. There is a lot of crime and lot of people that would do very violent things just to get a few bucks..... it is just one of those cities where if you are not in a very friendly place you better be packing heat.
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That's good news FQ! Of course...going out at midnight on the street isn't what I'd call Hi IQ activity, but hey- you gotta do what you gotta do. I love this story because it sounds like you were as prepared as you could be.
One night I was (unarmed of course) out in SF with wife, daughter and son-in-law and got boxed in by 4 "Al Anon" fellers. I pushed the girls against a restaurant window and squared off with the snatch man, very happily noting that my son-in-law was square-up with the other three. We had coats on and I guess they figured we were armed with something more than just our dicks, 'cause they took off. Luck, that time. I hate places that prevent you from protecting yourself and your loved ones.
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Amen to all of the above. You may be a faux libertarian twit, but dammit, you are our faux libertarian twit, and the homies in SC better leave you alone!!! ;)
Glad you're OK, tough run in for sure.
WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAT ON FQ ! ;D
Glad it worked out.
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WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAT ON FQ ! ;D
Glad it worked out.
Damn Straight!
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That's good news FQ! Of course...going out at midnight on the street isn't what I'd call Hi IQ activity, but hey- you gotta do what you gotta do. I love this story because it sounds like you were as prepared as you could be.
One night I was (unarmed of course) out in SF with wife, daughter and son-in-law and got boxed in by 4 "Al Anon" fellers. I pushed the girls against a restaurant window and squared off with the snatch man, very happily noting that my son-in-law was square-up with the other three. We had coats on and I guess they figured we were armed with something more than just our dicks, 'cause they took off. Luck, that time. I hate places that prevent you from protecting yourself and your loved ones.
I just hope they didn't see a twinkle in your eye and thought you were going to use it. :o
Glad that worked out also.
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WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAT ON FQ ! ;D
Glad it worked out.
I guess we would have rounded up bail for ya too. Can't you just get some ladies to party with you in your hotel and stay off the streets late at night?
;)
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That's good news FQ! Of course...going out at midnight on the street isn't what I'd call Hi IQ activity, but hey- you gotta do what you gotta do. I love this story because it sounds like you were as prepared as you could be.
One night I was (unarmed of course) out in SF with wife, daughter and son-in-law and got boxed in by 4 "Al Anon" fellers. I pushed the girls against a restaurant window and squared off with the snatch man, very happily noting that my son-in-law was square-up with the other three. We had coats on and I guess they figured we were armed with something more than just our dicks, 'cause they took off. Luck, that time. I hate places that prevent you from protecting yourself and your loved ones.
That is the sad and very irritating part about this. It was a dark side street and they could run away, I couldn't. They were late teens/early twenties and both looked stronger, heavier and fitter than me. If I had run, I wouldn't have gotten ten feet before I was tackled. If I tried to fight, two on one with guys bigger than me, I would lose. If I got my wallet out, to give corn row his twenty thinking that would solve the problem and was looking at it with both hands busy, I would have, at minimum, gotten it taken. Standing my ground with my back to the wall and my hands crossed in front of me, right on the gun, left on my shirt to pull it up was my only option. No retreat, no Jet Li BS, just doing the only thing I could. I would love to put an anti in that position and ask them what their plan was. Reason with two guys who were obviously amped up and looking for a victim leaving a bar late? Those guys knew what they were doing and weren't playing games. Why should I? I learned three things. First, if you are going to get inebrieated do it in your own home. Just have two or three if you're out. Second, not wearing a gun is like not wearing pants, a bad idea outside of your own home. Three, ten feet is very, very close. There is zero time for a warning, you better be ready to start shooting once you clear the holster. That, more than anything scared the crap out of me.
FQ13
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FQ, glad things worked out for you.
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FQ, glad your OK...and your story is going to keep me awake for a while.
Richard
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The best thing to take away from this FQ is that because you WERE AWARE your worries were about details.
You did not find yourself switching gears from the next days plans to OH MY GOD WHAT"S HAPPENING ?
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Glad you're ok FQ. 10 feet is too close. It must have happened super fast.
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FQ....you learned something valuable and managed to keep your head. Well done and glad your OK..
I've said before, I carry a gun because I can't outrun them anymore. You've just proved my point..
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As others have pointed out many times on the forum, how you present yourself to others in public (confidence) goes a long way (along with being armed) toward letting them know that you refuse to be a target, or victim. Being armed is only one aspect. Showing that you are not afraid to use it goes pretty far many times (such as this time). Of course, you can't count on that 100% of the time and must factor in the excess stupidity of some criminals who might push the envelope.
I'm glad that these boobs were smart enough to realize their 'error' in choosing a target.
Enjoy the rest of your vacation, FQ.
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Another complication to this whole stupid mugging thing (have I mentioned I have issues with those guys?). I took my mother out to a nice restaraunt last night (SNOB, standing for Slightly North Of Broad, as its at the intersection of Broad and East Bay Streets. I found it funny at least ;D). Anyway, we both had small plates. One of the cool things about this joint is that you get to choose between appetizers, medium plates and entrees. A great way to budget. Anyway, we came back to the hotel, and I was done for the night. My mon, however, without my knowledge, decided to to get a midnight snack (yes at midnight) at the oyster bar a block over. Now I feel: A: Horrified I wasn't there with her and B: guilty I didn't warn her. I still don't want to ruin her view of the city because she loves it and associates it with my late stepdad who died way too young (70). I don't want to screw up her trip or spoil her memory because I know she would freak out. She's just not geared for violence and doesn't like guns, though she's not an anti. Still, the idea that she went out onto the same streets late at night that those scum bags were on by herself terrifies me, and I feel that I should have warned her. Flip side is its about a year after my stepdad died, and we are in his birthplace seeing his favorite places, and basically having a two person wake. I don't want to screw that up for her, which telling the truth would sure as hell do. Thoughts?
FQ13
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You can let her know without telling her that there is NO WHERE in this country that a woman should be out after dark and that you would appreciate her letting you accompany her next time.
You don't need to admit the mugging, just put the fear of reality into her.
Good luck!
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Good job reacting to the threat.
Enjoying the adrenaline dump? ;D
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FQ13
The only thing that was wrong in your response to the muggers is you did not report them to the police. You are safe and responded well to their attempted mugging but they are still out there able to do the same thing to an other, softer target.
It is likely these guys have done the same thing before. You would have been able to provide an accurate discription to aide in their capture. Just my two cents Kimosabi.
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FQ13
The only thing that was wrong in your response to the muggers is you did not report them to the police. You are safe and responded well to their attempted mugging but they are still out there able to do the same thing to an other, softer target.
It is likely these guys have done the same thing before. You would have been able to provide an accurate discription to aide in their capture. Just my two cents Kimosabi.
I've thought about that. The reason I didn't call was because they did nothing illegal. Getting in your face and asking for the "loan" of a twenty, when it was clearly designed to get your wallet out and your hands busy is threatening, but it doesn't violate any laws. Likewise, I know that SC reciprocates with Floida in terms of CCW, but do you really want to explain that to a twenty something cop who may be an anti at midnight? In an ideal world, I would have reported it, but I figured I'd just dealt with muggers, why call (quite literally) the attention of Charleston's finest on my head.
FQ13 who respects, but does not trust cops (My apologies to those it might offend, but its the truth).
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I've thought about that. The reason I didn't call was because they did nothing illegal. Getting in your face and asking for the "loan" of a twenty, when it was clearly designed to get your wallet out and your hands busy is threatening, but it doesn't violate any laws. Likewise, I know that SC reciprocates with Floida in terms of CCW, but do you really want to explain that to a twenty something cop who may be an anti at midnight? In an ideal world, I would have reported it, but I figured I'd just dealt with muggers, why call (quite literally) the attention of Charleston's finest on my head.
FQ13 who respects, but does not trust cops (My apologies to those it might offend, but its the truth).
+1, I think you've done the right thing. And +1 on it being said that it's not a good idea for her to be out alone at midnight ANYWHERE in this country! :(
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I've thought about that. The reason I didn't call was because they did nothing illegal. Getting in your face and asking for the "loan" of a twenty, when it was clearly designed to get your wallet out and your hands busy is threatening, but it doesn't violate any laws. Likewise, I know that SC reciprocates with Floida in terms of CCW, but do you really want to explain that to a twenty something cop who may be an anti at midnight? In an ideal world, I would have reported it, but I figured I'd just dealt with muggers, why call (quite literally) the attention of Charleston's finest on my head.
FQ13 who respects, but does not trust cops (My apologies to those it might offend, but its the truth).
Your correct. If they had found the two gentleman, they could have claimed you pull a gun on them and they ran away. The LEO may have believed you,(unless they read some of your comments on this website that are in fact Unf#ing believable!!! ;)) but it would have come down to your word versus theirs.
You did right young Jedi
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Remember the John Wayne quote that life is harder if you are stupid ? The same thing applies to ignorant (uninformed).
I think you need to find a way to inform your Mother that it is no longer the America she grew up in and that no one is ever "safe" any where. ESPECIALLY after dark in a city.
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B & S SOMETHING SMELLS WENT LOOKING FOR IT DIDJA
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B & S SOMETHING SMELLS WENT LOOKING FOR IT DIDJA
Huh?
FQ13
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In reading and posting in this thread, I had not really thought about this until now......
According to SC law if you would have shot one or both of those guys there is a good chance that you might have gone to prison.... or at the very least would have had a very difficult case to defend yourself in.
Under SC law, you cant use deadly force unless you are faced with death or severe bodily injury. Use of deadly force may also be used to defend someone else from death or severe bodily injury. Since these guys never presented a weapon, even if they were trying to intimidate you and rob you...... you still could not shoot them. You would have to have just taken the butt kicking. In SC by you presenting the weapon first, it very easily could have been viewed as you escalating things and bringing lethal force into the equation when it was not legally justifiable. Especially once you factor in what the story the bad guys (if still living) would have given to the police -- Probably would have made you out as if you were robbing them. Yes, you were faced with multiple attackers, and ones that you felt were of superior physical strength, but if it turned out that they never had a weapon it might have had to go to a jury to be decided.
It is taken case by case and basically comes down to if it is reasonable that the person was truly in fear of their life. A little old lady with a walker pulling a gun on a guy that wants her purse is going to be viewed very differently then if a 30 year old male who is reasonable fit pulls a gun on someone asking for their wallet. Multiple attackers is also a factor, however I dont really know what number of attackers is viewed as being justifiable to bringing lethal force into the mix.
I am not saying you did the wrong thing, and I am not saying that you over reacted in anyway. I just think that this should be discussed. It is important for us (all of us) to remember that when we are carrying outside of our home state that it is very important to know all the laws about use of force. You may need to adjust your tactics. It is more then just knowing about reciprocity and open carry. Laws vary greatly from state to state about the use of force as well.
In SC, there are several layers of examination when it comes to self defense shootings that probably would have protected you. The officers on scene have to view it as questionable, the local department has to view it as questionable, the state police dept has to view it as questionable, and finally the state prosecutor has to believe it should be prosecuted. It is my experience that police in SC are very pro CCW holders. In most instances that I have seen, if it looks in anyway to be an act of personal protection by a legal gun owner/carrier law enforcement sides with the CCW holder. The law can technically become very nuanced, but it rarely comes down to deciding that in a court room.
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That should be the least of your concerns, while it is wise to know local process and you MUST know the law the most important thing is that you have to be alive to care .
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Eric makes a good point. The threat was there but but made non verbally, just body language and tone. Did they have a weapon? Probably, but just took off loking for easier prey. Still it is frustating knowing that even if you do everything right you might still wind up in a cell next to their cousin. Makes me very grateful for Fl.s generous castle doctrine and why we should all push for one in our states.
FQ13
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Eric makes a good point. The threat was there but but made non verbally, just body language and tone. Did they have a weapon? Probably, but just took off loking for easier prey. Still it is frustating knowing that even if you do everything right you might still wind up in a cell next to their cousin. Makes me very grateful for Fl.s generous castle doctrine and why we should all push for one in our states.
FQ13
SC has a castle doctrine also.... you have no duty to retreat, however you can not kill someone just because they want your money/property. Lethal force has to be reserved for life and death situations only