The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: twyacht on October 21, 2009, 08:57:22 PM
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Short & Sweet. I have a fair amount of consistency shooting double taps at 7 yds. with my FN9, M+P .40, and EAA Witness .40 with ported barrel.
However, when it comes to my 45ACP, my S&W 1911, and/or Glock21 can be both really good, and/or really bad. :-\
What are some tips that might help a frequent shooter improve combat accuracy with a larger caliber like the 45, become more consistent in his double tap drills overall.
My drills goes from the holster and ready position, and first round fine, second round can be high or low, high right or left, or very close to the first round. ???
Recoil is not an issue with the .45, it seems re-acquiring the target for the follow up shot can be more "spread out".
Could I be shooting too fast? (I can shoot fast, but would rather have accuracy).
Is point shooting valid? (I seem to only notice the front sight for the second shot.)
Are there drills that can help at a range?
Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.
Just a shooter on the path to better consistency.
Thank you.
tw
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Rhythm. It sounds like you are not being consistent in your follow through, You are trying to shoot your doubles at the same rate you do the other guns, but the .45 is kicking up higher so it takes longer to come back down, hence the second shot is high.
I would concentrate on the sight a little more and worry less about speed.
$0.02
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Fundamentals and stance. Slow it down and build up the speed.
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I took a little time and tried to find the video on here but couldn't. During either Shooting Gallery or The Best Defense Michael does some drills with Rob P. and others. Many things done at Gunsite also cover this. Maybe RP or MB will come in with advice or the link to the videos.
The only video I could find was the wall drill. This would be a good start, or foundation as they actually promote it as. And like both Tom and Tex have said, start with good fundamentals, start slow and build speed. Rob Leatham always says "slow is smooth and smooth is fast." I think if your smooth you'll be on target.
Good luck, and please share any training advice you get.
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m58 Posted "Good luck, and please share any training advice you get."
Please do, I'm just making a suggestion based on what I screw up ;D
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First of all , stop "Double Tapping"
Forget "double tapping" as a concept. It is invalid in the context of defensive shooting... just good for games where you know how many shots you need. Train to shoot as many shoots as you need as fast as you can be combat accurate until you don't need to shoot anymore.
Double Tap (and any other pattern of shots) is a really flawed and potentially deadly concept. In addition to leaving you pausing when you may need to be shooting, it could also have you sending rounds downrange when you don't need them.
First Step: Choose a combat accurate area to shoot at. Accept that ANY HIT inside that area is equally valuable.
Second Step: Picture a threat.
Third step: shoot as quickly as you can keep rounds in that target until you visualize the threat stopping and then stop shooting.
Repeat, varying the number of shots in your strings of fire, so that you don't develop the bad habit of falling into a pattern of shots.
If you go outside the area, you are not using a proper "balance of speed and precision" (google it). If you're shots are in one ragged whole in the center of your target area, you are shooting too slowly.
I'd suggest a human high center chest sized circle of box (6-8") at 10' for a reasonable defensive training target & distance to start with.
As far as the "how to shoot", you can also Youtube search Combat Focus Shooting for some videos that I've out out.
-RJP
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Thank you all, Sounds like I need to "slow the hell down" and focus more on balance, stance, and accuracy rather than speed.
Thanks Rob, I will check those out.
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I'd suggest a human high center chest sized circle of box (6-8") at 10' for a reasonable defensive training target & distance to start with.
That's why I like the NRA D2 target. It's about a 6" x 8" tombstone (chest) shaped target.
(http://alcotarget.com/images/osb/d-2.jpg)
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Second Step: Picture a threat.
I think this step is very important when it comes to defensive training. When you think of the threat, think of a nut job just feet away from you...think "I am about to die!"...think "I must stop this guy, I must stop this guy, I must stop this guy!" Shoot that guy till he is no longer a threat.
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First of all , stop "Double Tapping"
Forget "double tapping" as a concept. It is invalid in the context of defensive shooting... just good for games where you know how many shots you need. Train to shoot as many shoots as you need as fast as you can be combat accurate until you don't need to shoot anymore.
Double Tap (and any other pattern of shots) is a really flawed and potentially deadly concept. In addition to leaving you pausing when you may need to be shooting, it could also have you sending rounds downrange when you don't need them.
First Step: Choose a combat accurate area to shoot at. Accept that ANY HIT inside that area is equally valuable.
Second Step: Picture a threat.
Third step: shoot as quickly as you can keep rounds in that target until you visualize the threat stopping and then stop shooting.
Repeat, varying the number of shots in your strings of fire, so that you don't develop the bad habit of falling into a pattern of shots.
If you go outside the area, you are not using a proper "balance of speed and precision" (google it). If you're shots are in one ragged whole in the center of your target area, you are shooting too slowly.
I'd suggest a human high center chest sized circle of box (6-8") at 10' for a reasonable defensive training target & distance to start with.
As far as the "how to shoot", you can also Youtube search Combat Focus Shooting for some videos that I've out out.
-RJP
I saw a video of The Pincus on YouTube a while back where he addresses this in the context of combat accuracy..... It was a great video...... I looked for like a minute but could not find it so I'm not sure if it is still online. You might want to give it a search and see what you can come up with.
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In a BG just feet away confrontation, the decisions to draw, aim and fire have to happen very quickly.
My concern is in regards to training and "firing until the threat is stopped" without firing too quickly. I've read too many LEO shooting reports of multiple rounds fired, and only a few hits.
I would like to achieve a "balance" of shooting fast enough to end a life threatening incident, and not sending bullets astray.
Hence, the slang term of a double tap. A retired BSO Detective, said that 2 to the chest and 1 to the head, in case of a BG in body armor,on meth, big dude, etc,.. aka Mozambique Drill, is one drill to consider.
Just trying to get the "mind" right in regards to tempo and shot control in a Life or Death confrontation. It seems a daunting task.
The spray & pray with a high capacity magazine is something I would like to avoid. Shooting 8 to 10 rounds, but only getting 2 hits seems like somethings amiss,.. two or three rounds with a concentrated effort on those shots, "should" stop a threat. I know there are variables out the wazoo, but combat accuracy in a 2 to 5 shot string is what I'm trying to get without going too fast, let alone having to move and shoot as well.
Sounds like I need Rob to swing down to S. Fl. this winter where we can get out the SPF 15 and get a class together. Maybe???
Thanks for all the input.
Practice, Practice, Practice...
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Maybe we can convince Rob to schedule one around the NRA convention next year. I'm seriously considering making the trip!
I hope you do Timothy, I have "kin" folk 30 minutes North of Charlotte, in Mooresville. Private family farm, target shooting, big family farmhouse with a great wine cellar, and plenty of Southern Hospitality.
Me and at least 1 co-worker are driving up, in May, if I can drag the Haz out and catch Peg along the way, I'm driving.
Hope you can make it. I am looking forward to the NRA show, and a Rob session is possible.
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I hope you do Timothy, I have "kin" folk 30 minutes North of Charlotte, in Mooresville. Private family farm, target shooting, big family farmhouse with a great wine cellar, and plenty of Southern Hospitality.
Me and at least 1 co-worker are driving up, in May, if I can drag the Haz out and catch Peg along the way, I'm driving.
Hope you can make it. I am looking forward to the NRA show, and a Rob session is possible.
I'm hoping to make it, TW.
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I'm hoping to make it, TW.
Holy Smokes! What a trip this is shaping up to be!!! Sounds like a possible DRTV rendezvous!!! Let me know if you want to ride with.
Peg's next... ;)
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When I feel my skills 'slipping' in the accuracy versus speed area, I have always used a set of practice drills using varying sizes of colored plastic plates (Solo brand). You can get them from 6" to 12" and in several colors. I glue them to a cardboard backer and shoot from different angles, positions, stances, etc. until I can keep them all in the smallest plate. Then I transfer to a standard silhouette target and go at it for a while. The plates always tighten my groupings on the silhouette.
A friend uses colored paper down to 3x5 index cards to do the same thing.
It works better if you have a range partner to call out targets at random.
I still practice the 'standard' drills, but this has always helped my shooting focus a bit.
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Holy Smokes! What a trip this is shaping up to be!!! Sounds like a possible DRTV rendezvous!!! Let me know if you want to ride with.
Peg's next... ;)
Ride along, of course. What fun would it be other wise! ;D
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Trouble is brewing.................... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Trouble is brewing.................... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You coming, Peg?
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You coming, Peg?
It's definitely on my "wanna do" list....but it is way to far ahead to plan.
May is a busy month with school and FFA functions.
Don't count me out......just can't count me in this early. :( :(
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TW,
I don't want to oversimplify, really, if you break the concept of Balance of Speed & Precision down, you'll see past the "spray and pray" issue. Generally, cops have low hit percentages because their training (often geared to their qualification course) is not even close to representative of real counter ambush shooting. "you have 10 seconds to fire 3 rounds" or whatever has nothing to do with "Get 4 good hits as fast as you can"... I'm suggesting you practice the later. Defining "good hit" is about picking realistic target sizes at plausible distances.
PS- I've got a course in Titusville the weekend after thanksgiving!
Pegleg,
You drill is very much like one we run in CFS... we put it in the family of "BoS&P Drills" because you have varying levels of precision necessary based on different stimuli (your partners commands and what you see.) Good Job!
-RJP
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I hope you do Timothy, I have "kin" folk 30 minutes North of Charlotte, in Mooresville. Private family farm, target shooting, big family farmhouse with a great wine cellar, and plenty of Southern Hospitality.
Me and at least 1 co-worker are driving up, in May, if I can drag the Haz out and catch Peg along the way, I'm driving.
Hope you can make it. I am looking forward to the NRA show, and a Rob session is possible.
I could be a second vehicle if somebody doesn't mind riding shottie in a rag top Jeep.
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Brosmetal said "riding shottie in a rag top Jeep". Rob Pincus did not know what I looked like when I showed up for Combat Focus Shooting in Indiana but knew what my Jeep looks like and walked up to me and addressed me. Got to respect a guy who pays attention to detail. Hope you guys get to meet up with him. He is the true alpha male and may come off as intimidating at first but becomes approachable and really gets your undivided attention to train you properly. I may sound like a broken record but his training is the best I have ever experienced for shooting a firearm. Static line (As I shot in the Military/LE experience) shooting is a joke compared to CFS/ICE Training.
And as for double taps, Rob nailed me for shooting tri-bursts. Fire until the threat is no longer a threat.
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TW, Mooresville, 5/10, plan to be there.
Rob is giving great advice on the reality of shooting for defense. But I'm not sure your getting your answer, Rob broadened the response quite a bit, and is exactly right in application, shoot until the threat is down ( Golden ), but how do you practice, and how do you evaluate, how you are doing, when applying the multiple shot on target concept, not to mention, getting out of the way at the same time, ( getting off the X ) ? Practice, and make sure you are getting a great grip, not a good grip when firing, and listen to fast shots, get a cadence in your mind, some may disagree, but for practice, you need a goal ingrained in your mind, to get faster, you need a motivation, other than your need, a Cheetah chasing you is a lot of motivation, a bad guy is too. That experience will motivate you to the next level, that I think you want to come to ( in practice ). Practice is key, but with a goal, and good motivation. Dry fire, and live fire, but get it in your mind about how fast. A firm stance, grip, and application, will let you shoot fast and accurate, especially within 10 yrds... If you can watch the CFS stuff, by all means watch them.
Remember, once a level of experience and ability has been achieved, it sticks around, for a long time, even if you don't practice for a while, the body remembers what it used to do. You might not be able to win matches, but you will still be above average.
I know Rob will have a response to this and is welcome.
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The point and shoot thread seems to be frozen, but this seems to fit here too.
I went to the range yesterday and practiced some point and shoot out of necessity, seems my vision has gotten a little worse so I couldn't see the sights anyway.
It was actually easier than I had imagined to make holes where I wanted them. I'd fire as soon as I "thought" I was back on target and my instincts were usually correct.
The big surprise was with my .22NAA mini-revolver. I found it was easier shooting it not trying to use the sights.
Don't get me wrong, we aren't talking tight groups here, but the shots were on the paper.
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M25,
I agree with everything except the inferred value placed on "dry fire" in regard to truly developing ones defensive ability.
David8,
The other thread was closed because it wasn't on topic anymore.
-RJP