The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: texcaliber on October 26, 2009, 04:04:46 PM
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What in your opinion is the better martial art geared toward child safety and defense?
A touchy subject, I know, but I would like to get a wide view on this subject, (MMA to Yoga) it does not matter. I will not laugh at any of your post, but understand I can not let my little girl walk around with a Claymore on her back like William Wallace nor Mad Max in Thunderdome.
It would be nice if you would include reasons for your suggestions. Also if it is possible a link to more information supporting your facts/opinions or video to represent your Art. I am a little hyperventilate at this time but realizing even I can not always be there.
Thank you.
tex
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As someone who teaches children, and also teaches martial arts to children. I have some very strong opinions on the subject.
I would ask other parents who's children are currently in martial arts classes. Are they happy with what is taught? What is taught? For children, the particular style is less important that the Teacher. If you truly want self defense, which for children also means self awareness, make certain that this is a focus of the Instructor/School.
Many of the big franchise schools are there strictly to make money and don't focus on practical things that will really benefit kids. There seems to be a fee for everything. At the dojo where I train and teach adults we encourage people to stay away from any school that has a camouflage belt.
Think about the things that you really want your child to know.
How to avoid danger.
What to do if confronted by danger.
How to make good decisions about their safety etc.
Then ask the instructor if these things are taught in his/her dojo.
Ask to try out a class for a three days or a week. Any good instructor will do so willingly.
If after the first class you get pummeled about signing a contract, go away fast.
Most schools that teach kids teach one of the simple arts like Te Kwan Do.
The basics start very much the same. Punches, kicks, blocks. As no child can compete with an adult in terms of strength, escapes and ways to get out of holds are important too.
I would also look for a dojo in which the classes are not too big.
Hope this is helpful
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Ditto to what he said. Far more important than the style is the school and the teacher. Do you get a good vibe from the place? Do the kids look happy? Is the teacher someone you would trust to not only watch, but touch your child? What do other parents say?
Second, what's your kids temperment? Would they be comfortable/ have the strenghth for a contact style, or be happier with somthing less in your face like akido? Do they like to compete, if so judo or tai kwan do might be the way to go.
I'd consider this, then go looking for styles.
FQ13
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Age is a big factor, 7 to 10? 10 to teen?
Just wondering an age range for your daughter as some styles may be too much or not enough depending on age/maturity level, etc,..
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Another thing to consider is does the Sensai hold his students to a standard of proper behavior OUTSIDE the DoJo.
When I was studying Shoto Kan, My Sensai Demoted two kids (one was his son ) He dropped them each one belt, his son for getting mouthy at home and the other kid got caught smoking at school . While they did not have to retest to regain their belts, they DID have to demonstrate good behavior for some time. ( I think it was 3 months.)
The point was that students had to be responsible, polite and well behaved at ALL times, not just in the DoJo.
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Definitely Aikido. There is no strength requirement and it is without the "badass" attitude of some of the other martial arts. You want your kids to be able to defend themselves, but you don't want them running around with the MMA attitude. Some people will tell you that it is not practical, these people have never been wristlocked and then had their head slammed into solid chair or desk. Aikido promotes peaceful existence, harmony, physical and spiritual balance but allows you to effectively defend yourself in any given situation. It is true that some schools are "harder" or "softer" than others. Ideally, you will have a dojo nearby that focuses on the martial aspect of the art and is not completely consumed with Qi (some Qi focus is vital, though).
Before Seagal got fat and became a movie star he was a beautiful example of the poetry and efficacy of Aikido:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu7aauJuQHY
*Note that the "uke" (one who receives) does comply when a technique is demonstrated, this is so that they are not injured. People will claim that this detracts from the art somehow, but someone who resists the technique is going to be a LOT of pain in most instances.
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I'd never even heard of 'Aikido' until I became a member of a British Police force in the mid '70's..... but it is absolutely the most useful martial art I have studied & practiced. MP
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Tex, no bad ideas so far, I like judo for young people, 10 or younger, it teaches you to fall down first, like gymnastics, good holds and escapes, but no striking. For a full regimen, strikes do need to be part of the regimen. I am a fan of Aikido, but have not practiced it, I like it it in theory and observation. I studied judo and tae kwan doe, Korean style. My teacher ( sensai ) was a great guy who is a marine that learned his stuff in Korea, and his teaching, is recognized in Korea. Hard core teaching, but gentle teacher. Gave as much as he thought you could accept.
I think the temperament and goal of the teacher is more important than the curriculum as has as much been stated. As the child grows older, and more capable, then more techniques are capable. The older MA schools teach respect, honor, and mental preparation, far better than training a bully, as I experienced in Tae Kwan doe. The sensai would allow you to bullied to a point, just to find out how you were, but would step in HARD, if need be.
At the end of the day, MMa, not what we watch on TV, completes the process, it is what takes it to the final level, complete domination of your opponent. No mercy type of stuff. No one technique is perfect. But all the previous have brought them to this point, which is the best, awareness,, avoidance and god forbid, action. But capable.
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Age is a big factor, 7 to 10? 10 to teen?
Just wondering an age range for your daughter as some styles may be too much or not enough depending on age/maturity level, etc,..
7yrs.
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AS a long time wreslter, jr team coach and ref. I'd say wreslting.
at that age, most martial arts places are just belt factorys.
I am also a judo player, judo is fairly light compared to wreslting. more so at a young age.
For the record, 2 nights a week I coach wreslting, 2 nights a week I go to judo pratice. I've worked out with all levels of both. A round or two with a high level judo player means you just get thrown alot. a round or two with a NCAA or olympic wreslter = you can't move the next morning.
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I would also recommend Judo along with Aikido. However, I would be hesitant to recommend wrestling and Brazilian Jujitsu because of the predominate focus on ground-fighting. If it is a one-on-one scenario then either of those arts is fine, but in today's world it seems more likely that you are going to be assailed by a group of miscreants instead of going mano-y-mano...
I don't know about you guys, but I don't like getting kicked in the head when I have someone's buddy in a choke-hold.
Just my .02
Regardless of what you enroll them in, martial arts is an incredible developmental tool for children.
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doing jujitsu in a fight gets your ass kicked or worse.
perfect example, the "guard postion" ( which is also used in judo) you do that in a fight, you are dead. They pick you up, and slam you against the ground. They don't do it in MMA as its illegal.
Most martial arts, work well in the dojo, but not on the street. Aikido is the perfect example of this.
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Most martial arts, work well in the dojo, but not on the street. Aikido is the perfect example of this.
See, this is what happens every time. Someone who doesn't KNOW makes a claim. If Aikido didn't work well on the street it wouldn't be used by American, British and Japanese law-enforcement.
The best advice I can give you is to go visit a few dojos and see what you like.
I am going to refrain from getting into a fight on the internet with TAB over this, so that would be the best solution...
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trust me there is a big diffrence between whats tuaght to LEs and whats done in the dojo.
the hall mark of a good "martial artist", is not getting cuaght up in one style or form, but taking "what works" from another martial art and combining it with what you already know.
Most combative training for the miltary, leos... etc is just that.
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That's TAB's trademark, he makes sweeping statements and never uses any facts to back them up.
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That depends on what dojo you go to. If you go to a Qi Aikido school, maybe so. But, if you go to a Yoshinkan, Aikibudo, or Serbian Aikido school then definitely not...
If you don't believe me, check out this history of Yoshinkan Aikido on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN4LbePVWYE
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There are basicly 3 forms to all martial arts, it does not matter what it martial art it is.
1 traditional. in a nut shell whats been done for XXXX period of time.
2 Competative. What works well in comp under a set of rules
3 progressive. a combo of one and two, some times with a real world exp, but general not.
Most dojos teach either 1 or 2. some teach 3, very few teach 3+ real world exp.
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You need to find a Dojo where a mind set is first and form second. If the mind is weak there is nothing that can be done by the body. Many Dojo's are belt factories, and some the instructors are school yard bullies behind a black belt persona. My Dojo teaches without the use of belts. It comes done to skill and the test put in front of you. Judo is not based on how big you are but how sharp you mind and body are.
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Guys
We are talking about a seven year old girl, not a navy SEAL. The purpose of the excersise is to teach her to be comfortable with her body, give her self confidence and self discipline, and help her improve her stenghth, coordination and balance. Anything will do, as long as the instructor is good. Given that she probably weighs seventy pounds soaking wet, I'm not sure wrestling or Judo are the way to go, but if she's working with kids her own size its all good. If she likes it, she can switch to something more hard core when she grows into at 14 or 15.
FQ13
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If you are in Texas, check this out, good people, good sytem, and a good time.
http://www.safetyamericacenter.com/
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I was 9 years old and i loved my sport from day one. I was pitted against older stronger kids but i over came with technique and mental toughness. We had a girl Sophie that was 10 and scared the boys to death, she was focused and ready, my first crush. ;D
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I was 9 years old and i loved my sport from day one. I was pitted against older stronger kids but i over came with technique and mental toughness. We had a girl Sophie that was 10 and scared the boys to death, she was focused and ready, my first crush. ;D
There is something about a woman who can kick your ass. ;D Its why I like women who ccw, I find the attitude required to get the permit and carry the piece makes us a lot more compatible than anything else. It indicates a low tolerance for BS and a good grip on reality.
FQ13 (And Marshall, I will try to steal your wife) ;D
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There is something about a woman who can kick your ass. ;D Its why I like women who ccw, I find the attitude required to get the permit and carry the piece makes us a lot more compatible than anything else. It indicates a low tolerance for BS and a good grip on reality.
FQ13 (And Marshall, I will try to steal your wife) ;D
She'd just end up kickin' yer ass.
8)
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She'd just end up kickin' yer ass.
8)
no she wouldn't... she knows he would enjoy it too much.
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This went ridiculously off topic.
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This went ridiculously off topic.
And that is a surprise how ? ??? ;D
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And that is a surprise how ? ??? ;D
You have to forgive me, it has been a while for me to post regular and it must of escaped me.
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We drift more than the Navy ;D
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We drift more than the Navy ;D
Yeah...plenty of oars in the water here......once someone starts in a new direction, might as well paddle along. ;D ;D ;D
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Hey wait a minute,. I row great,...
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/_DSC0084_067SMALL.jpg)
We drift more than the Navy ;D
Yes, but we have grog... ;D
Admiral Peg, reporting for duty.. 8)
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I KNEW you didn't have BOTH oars in the water ;D
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What do you get when you send 50 sailors out to sea?
25 couples ;D ;D
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What to you get when you send 50 sailors out to sea?
25 couples ;D ;D
Here I thought it was somebody to get the army into the fight. ;D
FQ13
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In regards to the topic, I have looked into Tae Kuan Do. The master seems to be very good at what he does and respect is the #1.(followed by control) Goes through the class which is always different and gives a life lesson. For the price(65/month 100/two childern 125/whole family) she can go 5 times a week. Good value in my opinion. Seems to me a lot of energy burning but i do not know if it is the "Best".
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In regards to the topic, I have looked into Tae Kuan Do. The master seems to be very good at what he does and respect is the #1.(followed by control) Goes through the class which is always different and gives a life lesson. For the price(65/month 100/two childern 125/whole family) she can go 5 times a week. Good value in my opinion. Seems to me a lot of energy burning but i do not know if it is the "Best".
As I said earlier, you're trying to raise a self confident little girl, not a ninja. Forget the best style, pick the best teacher. It sounds like you're comfortable with this guy and the price is good. Tae Kwan Do is common and its an olympic sport, plenty of competions around if she's into that. If she likes it, she can trade up to something more hard core like Krav Maga or even a practical style of Judo or Aikido when she's older and bigger. For now, its about confidence, balance and self discipline. I say go for it.
FQ13
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I have been working all day and I have a LOT going on... so, forgive me for what I am about to say:
I agree with TAB.
:o
Seriously, I vote wrestling. Lots of body awareness, exercise & fitness are involved, individual performance and motivation. If she likes it, she can graduate to a Jujitsu or MMA school.
Unfortunately, the fact is that ( especially as she gets older) the most likely situations in which she'd have to fight would be at the hands of someone that she knew and trusted well enough to let get close.
-RJP
(PS- stay on topic)
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I have been working all day and I have a LOT going on... so, forgive me for what I am about to say:
I agree with TAB.
:o
Seriously, I vote wrestling. Lots of body awareness, exercise & fitness are involved, individual performance and motivation. If she likes it, she can graduate to a Jujitsu or MMA school.
Unfortunately, the fact is that ( especially as she gets older) the most likely situations in which she'd have to fight would be at the hands of someone that she knew and trusted well enough to let get close.
-RJP
(PS- stay on topic)
Rob
I'm not sure I agree with you here. At seven, its about confidence, courage and general fitness (screaming loudly and running from the guy with the bag of candy or missing puppy is your job to teach her). When she gets older, stronger and heavier,and faces the threat of teenage boys (who have a hard time differentiating between no and maybe) maybe something hard and dirty like Krav Mega would be the way to go. I would still hesitate to reccomend a grappling style like wresteling or juijitsu or capoiera to a girl. She will always be smaller and weaker. Letting someone heavier get you on the ground seems like a bad idea. It seems to me that being able to do serious damage and retreat rapidly makes more sense, but I am no one's expert.
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She will always be smaller and weaker. Letting someone heavier get you on the ground seems like a bad idea. It seems to me that being able to do serious damage and retreat rapidly makes more sense, but I am no one's expert.
I've got a daughter... and the problem is that she will be letting someone heavier and stronger get close to her and it is THEN that the "yes, no, maybe" problem might become a real issue. I can pretend that she will be at striking distance, but that would be denying the overwhelming majority of the evidence about how sexual assaults (and physical assaults against women in general) start (not the ones that are sensationalized on the news... the much more common ones that start with isolation and betrayed trust).
This is a big issue when I teach Women's Assault Prevention. Everyone shows up wanting to kick in the groin and palm strike the nose... that's fine if you're worried about ski-masked guys on the jogging trail, but it doesn't work so well against the co-worker leaning over you at the office on a late night, the study partner next to you on the couch or the boyfriend in the back seat who doesn't get the "stop". The Ski-Mask guys are less than 1% of reported sexual assaults.
Extreme Close quarters skills are what women and kids need.
A thumb into your eye socket while grabbing the back of your ear and grasping until your skull is being held between the thumb and index finger is just as practical for a 7 year old kid as it is for a 70 year old woman or for me or you. Knowing how to escape from being pinned to the ground so that you can get to that technique, a choke or a lamp to break over someone's head makes sense. Teaching a 50 pound kid to kick or punch is like teaching a horse to count... even if it works, they can't do much with it.
-RJP
edited to add:
I also recommend wrestling for boys in that age range for the physical reasons and most of the psychological ones.
I think that at striking distances Verbal Skills, Awareness, Avoidance and De-Escalation are much better tools to give kids than strikes. A
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Rob
I shall defer to your experience and knowledge. Hell, you do this for a living. My main concern for a young girl, or me for that matter, is being able to disable or disorient the attacker, disengage, and get the heck out of Dodge. Anything beyond that should be left to the cops. Or, in your or my case, being able to bring a gun into play, but I still prefer the the not being there option when it comes to a gun fight. I would rather deploy a pair of sneakers and a cell phone than a Glock.
FQ13
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I agree with 100%... But "want" and "need" are different things. It has everything to do with what serious attacks are most likely for the kids and girls... it is not one that occurs at striking distances.
But, while we are on the topic, if someone wants something more "martial artsy", seek out a Personal Defense Readiness course (google it). It is the only course of its kind that I can recommend.
-RJP
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I coach a girl, from the age of about 5 til she was 13. last year as a jr in HS, she won the womens HS national title at 160. She also won several state titles in CA. She regularly beats the boys in HS. From time to time I still have matchs against her at the club level. She is very, very tough.
If you want to boost a girls self confidence, there is nothing like beating the boys at their own game to do it.
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Another thing to remember, IMHO, is to ask the question when dealing with teaching martial arts to kids, is "how far are you willing to go with the depth of training concerning the variables of age, emotions, and mental acuity?"
When training for physical fitness and SD, what level of SD are you going to take it?
What is not enough, just enough, or too much?
For example, are you wanting to teach them to surprise and deter the antagonist long enough to get away and seek help?
Or in Rob's example of older teens with an overzealous "boyfriend" that is going too far, the 'deter and seek help' method may just piss the guy off and escalate the situation...in which case have you taught to incapacitate until the law arrives?
I know it all depends on the age of the child, but what I'm getting at is the awareness level and the mental ability required for the child to know how to judge the required amount of force necessary to do the job that needs to be done.
Here's where the quality of the teacher would be paramount.
I hope that made sense.
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Krav magra down and dirty and gets the job done. Instead of fancy moves you negate your attackers advantage by hurting him with simple moves that other martial arts do not teach.
I have studied several types and they are great but not what you need on the street.
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Krav magra down and dirty and gets the job done. Instead of fancy moves you negate your attackers advantage by hurting him with simple moves that other martial arts do not teach.
I have studied several types and they are great but not what you need on the street.
Not exactly what most people would want to teach a 7 year old girl.
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It is when the sickos are trying to rape or kill them.
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As a women's self-defense instructor, DT instructor, and Krav student, I would have to recommend KMX through Krav maga worldwide. For a 7 year old its great. It includes a comprehensive program taught in terms of "bullies and bad guys" about prevention, awareness, reporting incidents, strangers etc. and great fight skills. Classes are fun but all kids at our dojo have a great time learning...
they have a belt system to develop a sense of accomplishment and pride, but tactics are all geared to "get you home in one peice.
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http://www.austinsystema.com/main/philosophy.html
I couldn't find the best site. But it's a real world martial art.
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Having your child participate in the martial arts can be one of the best decisions in their development. Enter Aikido. Aikido is an art from Japan. There are a few ways to translate Aikido to English. The most direct translation is, "The Way of Being in Harmony with Energy." Another more romantic translation is, "The Art of Peace." Perhaps the most important aspect to Aikido and certainly an important one for children is the fact that there are no attacks in Aikido.
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Rob said,
'Seriously, I vote wrestling. Lots of body awareness, exercise & fitness are involved, individual performance and motivation. If she likes it, she can graduate to a Jujitsu or MMA school."
I wrested in high school, college and as a post grad so I would agree. It may be easier to find a womens team now then I was a kid.
Another thought is judo. Lot's of good programs around the country. Lots of female practioners. It takes a great deal of conditioning and the techniques work well.
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The best thing about Judo and Aikido is size doesnt matter. Its all about skill and defense, I would never take a fight to the ground unless I had too. Wrestling and MMA based styles usaully lead to some sort of ground game that leaves open for attack.
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Mauserman,
I think it's hard to beat the physical toughness that wrestling brings out in a person. Judo iand jujitso are certainly very close to that level. Just having somebody leaning and pushing on you all the time is wearing.
My high school was in a very strong wrestling area in PA. They never cut anyone from the team. They just quit, most after one or two days, most in the first month.
I really like the flow of movement in Aikido. But if I understand it correctly the practioner is never trying to hurt his attacker, just stop the attack. What fun is that? ;D
Yes judo and wrestling are sports not MMA. I do think both have things that translate in to fighting arts.
I knew Andor P-Jobb at college. He might be the tough man I ever met in my life. He coached the Hun Judo team there and taught art.
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I have practiced both Thai boxing and Judo for most of my life, and have combined certian skills that both defend and at stop the threat cold. Wrestling is a very tough sport but it requires you to have a very strong upper body, I dont know of any females that can match a male in that respect.
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I have practiced both Thai boxing and Judo for most of my life, and have combined certian skills that both defend and at stop the threat cold. Wrestling is a very tough sport but it requires you to have a very strong upper body, I dont know of any females that can match a male in that respect.
while i won't say you don't need strength to wrestle, just like judo, good technique and proper position are the diffrence between winning and loseing. girls can and do excell at it, infact at the 10-14 year range, they tend to be stronger then the boys.
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A little late to the party on this topic....I teach children and adults and may have a little insight on the topic. I started at 10 years of age in Kung Fu and GoJo. My brother was a wrestler so he being much older than me used me as his training partner i.e. throw dummy. My neighbor was a boxer who gave me boxing lessons. I had a school teacher who taught me basic fencing. So I was exposed to a variety of systems. This made me skeptical of holding to straight traditional dogma. When 14 I was lucky enough to train in JKD(Kali/Silat/MuayThai/Ground Fighting) under one of Guro Dan Insanto's top instructors the late Terry H. Gibson in Tulsa. I was able to see the usefulness of being exposed to a variety of systems even if the exposure was limited and I was definitely no master of each system. So exposure in a variety of arts even if it is limited I think is good. This way they can see how to integrate different concepts and also see which system is better for them. Don't discount non-Asian arts such as wrestling and boxing. They are great arts that contribute greatly to many attributes useful in many areas. Most of my best students to train come from these two arts.
For many years I taught a Karate-lite system from Tracy Kenpo for children. Later on I had problems with teaching kids from 5 to 14 these system and when they came to the adult class I said forget 80% of what I taught you and now let's get real. Seemed kind of wrong to me. So I finally began to teach a JKD/MMA(no not UFC) system for kids. I keep it real basic and fun. As Luis Gutierrez calls his system P.A.W.(Play As the Way). I had no idea how it would go over with the kids or parents. No gi's or belts or board breaking can be quite different than what they may be thinking of. So I probably do more educating the parents than most by giving them a very detailed info packet and explain why the system is like it is. I let them know this is not for every child or parent and encourage them to watch a few classes and see and if they start they can drop out without any hurt feelings or contracts. I do not run my classes as a business but for the love of it. If I break even that is great for me. So many Martial Arts classes are set up for money from uniforms, belt testing, fee after fee and long contracts and the like. It went over great. Had a few parents that wanted their kids to be Randy Couture or Jet Li or my favorite...."can you make my 6 year old be able to beat up two kidnappers at the same time?" Geez, what are they thinking.
My daughter now 10 has been training since she was 4 but only in small amounts until she was around 6 which depends on the maturity of the child. She has never been made to train, she wants to and loves it but is has always been presented as a fun activity. She can take care of herself with little problem. However, if a 6'3" BG attacked her she knows to escape and draw attention to herself not to try to fight one on one. She also has been taught not to ever fight unless there are no other good choices. It does my heart good to see her be able to easily and humanly control and make her untrained boy cousins who outweigh her by 10 to 30 pounds tap. They cannot believe a little girl can do that. That helps her self confidence.
Just watch many different classes and see what fits with her. Good luck and hope it is a good experience.