The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Sethsquatch on November 01, 2009, 09:56:19 AM
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Hi, I'm in the process of selecting a lightweight "Katrina rifle." Any opinions out there on the relative merits of the following carbines?
- Ruger 556
- HK416
- Ruger Mini-14 in 6.8
- Robinson XCR in 6.8
Thanks!
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While I don't have any personnel experience with any of the carbines you listed. I think I would stay away from the 6.8 SPC for a "Katrina rifle" because the ammo may be difficult to find in a pinch. I would stick to a 5.56 or 7.62 cambering. I also think I would stay with a rifle that used standard AR-15 Mags as they are more common and easier to find if things go to Hell in a hand basket! ::)
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I agree with the previous post. An SHTF rifle should always be chambered in common calibers. The best cartridge in the world is useless if you can't find it. My rule of thumb is that if I can't buy ammo for it a Wal-mart, I don't want to own it. Given your (and my needs, since I'm a Florida boy) you are looking for a gun that is reliable, accurate enough at a hundred yards, has hi-cap mags, and frankly looks intimidating enough to persuade the looters to look elsewhere, and will do for hunting in a pinch.
My reccomendations are:
AR-15, you can find them for around $750 or less if you look, cheap mags, affordable but not cheap ammo
AK-47 (my first choice for you) reliable and cheap. Classic arms and k-var are both having huge sales. You can get a converted Russian for $500 at k-var and a Rommanian Wasser for about $400 at Classic arms (both are very reputable companies). The Ak offers dirt cheap ammo, but slightly higher priced mags, $20-$30 vs $15 for an AR. It will also go bang period. You sacrifice some accuracy, but at down the block ranges, who cares.
Kel-Tec SU-2000 This a folding stock pistol caliber carbine that is designed to accept hand gun mags. It comes in 9mm and .40. If you order in say, Glock, it will be interchangeable with your handgun. I prefer a rifle caliber to a pistol caliber carbine, and am not a huge fan of Kel-tec, but lots of folks love these.
M-1 carbine, a classic for a reason and just fine for doing busines three dors down. I would hugely prefer an AR or AK, or even a mini-14, but still a valid choice.
Lever action in .44 mag, 30-30 or .308. Slower, less capacity, but it will do the job and not scare the neighbors.
Good luck
FQ13
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I'd go with the Ruger 556, Common caliber, Mags and parts.
H&K hates civilians, replacement parts may not be available when you need them.
Mini 14 ,Requires special mags and is not as accurate as anything else you listed.
The Robinson may be a fantastic rifle but if you can not be sure of getting ammo do you REALLY want to trust your life to it ?
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For the ones you listed I'd go for the Ruger for the reasons previously stated.
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An AK type will be less expensive, ammo is "cheaper", and in a Katrina situation, you may have to wade/swim and have a submerged rifle, mud, debris, trash, dirty, nasty environment.
That is what the AK was designed to work in and you'll be defending yourself at shorter ranges which suits an AK fine.
I have a Sig556, and would rely on it without hesitation in a Katrina situation, but for your specific question, an AK variant, not Romanian. There are better one's out there.
Just my .02 cents.
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If AK design is what you decide, look at other ammo choices. As others have said, 6.8 might not be that available. I wouldn't ever rate 7.62x39 that high myself. Sure there's a lot in the gun stores, but that's not where you'll be getting ammo when the SHTF.
I'd stick with .223 or 9mm. Possibly .40 & .45. Oh heck, get one in every caliber.
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Have to disagree somewhat with TW and Alf. If you do go with an AK don't get anything But a 7.62X39 they have been importing the ammo for over 20 years, that's longer than they have been MAKING 6.8, and it is heavy enough for deer as well which neither the 5.56 or 5.45 are. Even Romanian AK will give good service even if they are not the "best". With an AK you do not need the "best". The other rifle I would suggest (and I'm surprised BM has not already ) is the SKS, while the standrs Magazine is only 10 rounds, it has all the other benefits of the AK, is even LESS expensive and there are no detatchable magazines to fail or be lost. (Not to mention not having to spend $20 to $30 a pop.)
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Agree with the SKS, preferably Norinco, (back when they were $99 in the crate, smothered in cosmoline, I should have bought a six-pack),... :-[
The "Katrina" rifle is a beater. One that can be wet, dirty, trashed, dragged, used as a tool/club, etc,... and will go bang when required.
6.8 is a great obscure, expensive round. But not practical for the scenario in the OP.
TomB is correct for the SKS, there is a used one at a local store for $400 dollars. (note first parentheses in this post). :-\
Lots of accessories for the AK and SKS also.
Plus a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 12g works just fine in a Katrina situation...
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Consider how you're going to carry it. If you're in a car, a folding stock, like the XCR and mini 14 can mount would be an advantage. They're also easier to hide in a viola case or some other bag so it looks like you're not carrying a gun. On the other hand, if you're planning on it being a patrol rifle, hanging from a 1 pont sling, the folding stock isn't an advantage.
As far as ammo goes, you should have enough ammo on hand in a Katrina situation to last the length of the disaster, so any unusual (currently) caliber like 6.8SPC is OK. If you're expecting a long term disaster, like TEOTWAWKI, I agree that going 223 would make sense, but in that case you'd want an AR15 for parts availability too.
Back to specifically Katrina, in was in a hot, wet area. Rust will be a problem, and was.
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Plus a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 12g works just fine in a Katrina situation...
+1 to that. Even get a stainless model.
As far as ammo goes, you should have enough ammo on hand in a Katrina situation to last the length of the disaster.....
Well that's not fair. ;) Only caveat is knowing how long "how long" is. And of course having access to your stash. It's nice to have 2,000 rounds of 6.8 at home, but if I'm caught across town, how much can I find on the street?
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+1 to that. Even get a stainless model.
Well that's not fair. ;) Only caveat is knowing how long "how long" is. And of course having access to your stash. It's nice to have 2,000 rounds of 6.8 at home, but if I'm caught across town, how much can I find on the street?
What are you doing across town with a 6.8 rifle? ???
I guess what I'm saying is you should be able to survive a Katrina with what's in your magazines & stripper clips. I assume you'll have at least 4 magazines on you. Plus, just as the purpose of a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle, the purpose of a rifle is to fight your way to safety, which includes where you have the rest of your stuff.
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What are you doing across town with a 6.8 rifle? ???
I guess what I'm saying is you should be able to survive a Katrina with what's in your magazines & stripper clips. I assume you'll have at least 4 magazines on you. Plus, just as the purpose of a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle, the purpose of a rifle is to fight your way to safety, which includes where you have the rest of your stuff.
Work, Earthquake, tornado, or the out break of a riot could very easily catch you miles from home.
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What are you doing across town with a 6.8 rifle? ???
I guess what I'm saying is you should be able to survive a Katrina with what's in your magazines & stripper clips. I assume you'll have at least 4 magazines on you. Plus, just as the purpose of a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle, the purpose of a rifle is to fight your way to safety, which includes where you have the rest of your stuff.
Where is "safety" exactly? I hear it refered to all the time, but don't know I've ever seen it. Name this place (please don't say your house ::))... Something can put an end to you no matter where your at.
The idea of carrying a weapon of any sorts is to fight your way to someplace "safer" than where you may be. 6.8 is IMO, an idiotic choice if only because your very likely to be the ONLY one carrying it. An old rusty 30-30 lever action would serve better than the latest, trendiest plastic wonder on the market when there may be some chance of "Crap! I'm out of ammo!!!"
Besides, 6.8 is no different than .40 S&W... A caliber created for those to weak wristed to arm themselves with the a proper caliber, and to drive sales for "the latest thing". ::)
Still. Where's "safety"?
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BM
You're a bit harsher on 6.8 than I am. I think it has its place. Currently though, until it gains wider acceptance, that place is a hunting round. 6.8 is to .270 as .308 is to 30-06. A short cased version of a solid round, designed to work in semi-auto's. All things being equal, I would love to have my AR chambered in that rather than .556, and I'm sure most GI's would agree. Thing is, things ain't equal, and it's currently a boutique round with high dollar and hard to find ammo and mags. If I get the cash for a 6.8 upper, I will use it for hog hunting and will live with two five round mags. I wouldn't even think about it for an SHTF rifle. For that, I'll be using 5.56 and commonly available mags and ammo. As far as "saftey", evacuation isn't an option here. There is no reasonable way to get out without putting yourself in more danger. I have food, water, ammo, a generator, a grill and lots of lanterns and sundry supplies. It will be enough or it won't. Still, I do like the idea of parts and ammo being commonly available if days become weeks, and weeks become months as was the case in New Orleans.
FQ13
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Where is "safety" exactly? I hear it refered to all the time, but don't know I've ever seen it. Name this place (please don't say your house ::))... Something can put an end to you no matter where your at.
The idea of carrying a weapon of any sorts is to fight your way to someplace "safer" than where you may be. 6.8 is IMO, an idiotic choice if only because your very likely to be the ONLY one carrying it. An old rusty 30-30 lever action would serve better than the latest, trendiest plastic wonder on the market when there may be some chance of "Crap! I'm out of ammo!!!"
Besides, 6.8 is no different than .40 S&W... A caliber created for those to weak wristed to arm themselves with the a proper caliber, and to drive sales for "the latest thing". ::)
Still. Where's "safety"?
You are looking at the 6.8 from the opposite direction of everyone else, and you are STILL wrong, the designers looked at 223 and worked UP, you are looking at .308 or 7.62X54 and thinking DOWN. .270 and .308 are RIFLE rounds while the 6.8 is intended as an INTERMEDIATE round of larger caliber than .223. As such it performs quite well, with better punch and longer range performance do to the increased weight and length of the bullet.
As to where is safety, that's where your support structure is centered. Which in most cases is indeed your home, that's where all your stuff is and it is where friends and family expect to be able to meet up with you. Also it should be the area you are the most familiar with, all advantages not available to you anywhere else.
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At least we didn't have to listen to another AK rant. ::)
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Hey BM, don;t bash the .40 S&W too much,
http://www.centerfirecentral.com/calibers/40sw/40swchoice.htm
The bottom line is energy. So, I took the highest muzzle energy per caliber with no regard for bullet weight or velocity.
Bullet Velocity Energy
380 85 1000 189
38 158 890 278
9 MM 115 1225 383
357 125 1450 583
40 S&W 155 1205 500
44 Mag 240 1180 741
45 ACP 185 1000 411
With my Full size M+P .40, and a Rem870 and/or my Sig556, since I've been through the Floyd, Fran, and Bertha's, I never felt "undergunned", and I do not have a weak wrist.
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Hey BM, don;t bash the .40 S&W too much,
http://www.centerfirecentral.com/calibers/40sw/40swchoice.htm
The bottom line is energy. So, I took the highest muzzle energy per caliber with no regard for bullet weight or velocity.
Bullet Velocity Energy
380 85 1000 189
38 158 890 278
9 MM 115 1225 383
357 125 1450 583
40 S&W 155 1205 500
44 Mag 240 1180 741
45 ACP 185 1000 411
With my Full size M+P .40, and a Rem870 and/or my Sig556, since I've been through the Floyd, Fran, and Bertha's, I never felt "undergunned", and I do not have a weak wrist.
.45+P is about the same ME as .357 magnum. If you load it to .40 S&W pressure levels... well, that's the .460 Rowland.
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Where is "safety" exactly? I hear it refered to all the time, but don't know I've ever seen it. Name this place (please don't say your house ::))... Something can put an end to you no matter where your at.
When I watch baseball people are safe at home!
I live in a decommissioned missile silo. If I'm at home I'm safe. (OK, I don't really live in a silo, but if I did...)
I do think wherever I have my stores is a safer place, and maybe the safest place I'm going to be able to get to or access. Fighting defensively in an area you're familiar with is an advantage compared to roaming the streets.
If it's a disaster whose aftermath will pass in a short amount of time (weeks rather than months or years) I do think home is the best place, assuming you're prepared. Here in CO, I'm prepared to be snowed in for days. But, I expect to have power and heat. I can survive without both, but it'll be more rustic living.
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When I watch baseball people are safe at home!
I live in a decommissioned missile silo. If I'm at home I'm safe. (OK, I don't really live in a silo, but if I did...)
I do think wherever I have my stores is a safer place, and maybe the safest place I'm going to be able to get to or access. Fighting defensively in an area you're familiar with is an advantage compared to roaming the streets.
If it's a disaster whose aftermath will pass in a short amount of time (weeks rather than months or years) I do think home is the best place, assuming you're prepared. Here in CO, I'm prepared to be snowed in for days. But, I expect to have power and heat. I can survive without both, but it'll be more rustic living.
That's the thing. There are some disasters, some locales you can evac from, some you can't. For most of us, without prior warning or an insufficent road net work, we will survive in place or not at all. If its TEOTAWKI, like that assinine 2012 movie they keep hyping (everythings, blowing up, fly at 500 feet rather than 5000, because it looks cooler). ::) we are probably screwed. But in any reasonable circumstance, unless your house is underwater or on fire, you are probably better off at home. Leaving a generator aside, which is a luxury not a necessity, you can make it through a month for around a grand using stuf you will use or eat anyway. Home is the place to be. If home doesn't work, your odds just dropped by taking your chances on the road. Yes we can do it, but unless you have a destination where you know you will get a warm welcome, tavelling would not be my first choice.
FQ13
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A Staniless Steel Ruger Mini-14 may be the answer if rust is a concern. Magazines are available, though not as cheap as AR or Ak mags. Stripper clips can be used with them. Accurate enough and reliable.
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I have a few choices that are not on the list but might work in a pinch.
M48 Yugo mauser 7.92x57
Mosin nagant 7.62x57r
M1 carbine .30 cal
Ruger PC9 or PC4
Mossberg 500/590
Marlin 336 30-30
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As a clever man once said:
There are two definitive events when having too much ammo is a bad thing:
When you are drowning.
When you are on fire.
A durable proven inexpensive carbine/rifle, that will work even if wiped down with old motor oil, bootlaces used as bore snakes, etc,..
will be very effective to the OP.
A "common" round would be better than an obscure caliber, unless you specifically intend to stockpile that round and magazines.
Harder to trade or barter for uncommon ammo.
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I still believe a decent lever gun in .357 mag compliments my revolver very nicely. I can shoot either for hundreds of rounds without bothering to clean them and they work, every time. Good enough for the critters I have here abouts and good enough for the squishy heads of the zombies or other miscreants that are lurking about.
12 Gauge Pump, revolver and a lever gun....nothing more.
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As a clever man once said:
There are two definitive events when having too much ammo is a bad thing:
When you are drowning.
When you are on fire.
A durable proven inexpensive carbine/rifle, that will work even if wiped down with old motor oil, bootlaces used as bore snakes, etc,..
will be very effective to the OP.
A "common" round would be better than an obscure caliber, unless you specifically intend to stockpile that round and magazines.
Harder to trade or barter for uncommon ammo.
This is particularly true when there is zero reason to go exotic in the first place. Close range, choose 7.62x39 and use an SKS, AK or Mini-30 (just buy lots of mags for it). Longer range, buy an AR or mini-14 (again with the extra mags for it, Rugers main drawback at SD ranges ) and use 5.56. You want something bigger, go with a lever action in .308, .44 mag, 30-30, .308 or 30/06. You will never have a hard time finding parts or ammo. All these are proven calibers in proven rifles. Why mess around? You don't need fancy when the game involves hitting a pie plate at 100 yards and knowing it will always go bang.
FQ13
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6.8 may look nifty on paper. But is still a rediculous choice. I'll give .40 one HUGE benefit of the doubt... You can find that ammo EVERYWHERE! Store shelves are full of it even when everything else is sold out. So that alone would be at least one good thing.
I'll agree your houses are "safe" long enough to pack up supplies and get out. All I'm saying here is. Does ANYBODY know you own guns or supplies at all? WORST of all, do your kids friends know?!? Kids have the biggest mouths of anybody on the planet. If anybody is starving, panicing for any reason, needs water, wants a gun themselves, you can BET they'll come knocking. Don't share enough, or if that person is in "survival of the fittest" mode, and you've got a serious problem! Should police, gangs, or anybody start asking neighbors "do you know anybody who might own a weapon?" durring a confiscation scenario (Katrina), you can bet ANYONE who knows will squeal. Let your neighbors see you a week into any survival situation, and you don't look like your dieing (like them), and you can't hide that! You have a problem! Don't come out of your house. And neighbors will start to wonder "what's going on with them?", you'll have a problem.
"Safety" doesn't exist as a single place. Period. If you ONCE overestimate the safety of your location... Guess what.
Well... That missle silo ain't bad!!! ;D Does Russia know your now only using it as a house (still marked as a target)? What about floods? Earthquak? Radioactive worms? ;D
My favorite comment on here of all time whas a thread about gun confiscation, and somebody said. Ahhh, I'll invite them boys in for a beer and they'll let me go. ;D ;D ;D Yep. That's how it works. ;)
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That's right BM, that's exactly how it goes.
If you have the foresight to spice their beers with prussic acid. ;D
But I have to admit, my favorite "Dumb Comment" was the guy who swore up and down that a .22 Tomcat was a great SD gun even after he admited that the velocity and muzzle energy numbers he posted were wrong. What a maroon ;D
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Id agree about the Ruger M4 because I havent found an HK 416 civilian rifle out there. (a friend has a semi 416 14 inch registered upper on his rifle) but thats a special case.
I have a plain jane reliable Olympic Car-15 rifle in 5.56 that Im ever so slowly changing over to all tango down furniture and an SKS for deer hunting.
Of late Ive seriously contemplated getting rid of the AR and going totally to a 7.63x39 ammo platform with an AK of some sort with a folder. If it wasnt such a pain getting all new mags ammo and gun I might have already done so. The SKS/AK round is very popular here in WV believe it or not as a deer/hog hunting round and its much cheaper to practice with.
Why not consider a nice Colt M4 like the 6930? (is that the designation?) Its certainly cheaper than the ruger and is proven.
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That's right BM, that's exactly how it goes.
If you have the foresight to spice their beers with prussic acid. ;D
But I have to admit, my favorite "Dumb Comment" was the guy who swore up and down that a .22 Tomcat was a great SD gun even after he admited that the velocity and muzzle energy numbers he posted were wrong. What a maroon ;D
Bobcat! It's a Bobcat. Get that right mister! ;D
6.8, Bobcat .22, .40, or BB gun... You can argue that ANY of them have merrits... There are also better choices than any of them idealy.
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Id agree about the Ruger M4 because I havent found an HK 416 civilian rifle out there. (a friend has a semi 416 14 inch registered upper on his rifle) but thats a special case.
I have a plain jane reliable Olympic Car-15 rifle in 5.56 that Im ever so slowly changing over to all tango down furniture and an SKS for deer hunting.
Of late Ive seriously contemplated getting rid of the AR and going totally to a 7.63x39 ammo platform with an AK of some sort with a folder. If it wasnt such a pain getting all new mags ammo and gun I might have already done so. The SKS/AK round is very popular here in WV believe it or not as a deer/hog hunting round and its much cheaper to practice with.
Why not consider a nice Colt M4 like the 6930? (is that the designation?) Its certainly cheaper than the ruger and is proven.
Don't get rid of your AR! Just add an AK to your collection!! ;D
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Id agree about the Ruger M4 because I havent found an HK 416 civilian rifle out there. (a friend has a semi 416 14 inch registered upper on his rifle) but thats a special case.
I have a plain jane reliable Olympic Car-15 rifle in 5.56 that Im ever so slowly changing over to all tango down furniture and an SKS for deer hunting.
Of late Ive seriously contemplated getting rid of the AR and going totally to a 7.63x39 ammo platform with an AK of some sort with a folder. If it wasnt such a pain getting all new mags ammo and gun I might have already done so. The SKS/AK round is very popular here in WV believe it or not as a deer/hog hunting round and its much cheaper to practice with.
Why not consider a nice Colt M4 like the 6930? (is that the designation?) Its certainly cheaper than the ruger and is proven.
Good move. ;)
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I have a few questions for Sethsquatch.
What type of area do you live in? urban, suburban, rural
How long are you expecting to have to hold out? 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, 1 year
Are you looking to stay in place or try to leave for somewhere out of the affected area?
Is this carbine for home/self defense or for hunting as well?
In the meantime this is what I've noticed at our local Wally World when it comes to ammo.
When the ammo shortage was at it's peak I could still find tons of 12 gage bird and buckshot.
All pistol,revolver calibers were long gone including .22lr!
The only rifle/carbine ammo I could find was 30 Carbine and 7.62x39. (A box or two fo 30-30 could be found sporatically. All others were MIA.)
Now that the shortage is slowly, crawling back to somewhat normal, this is what I find.
You can find almost all caliber ammo at the gun stores, but at W.W. you can only find
40S&W, .38 special, .223, .308, 30-30, 7.62x39, and a smattering of 30-06
This, to me, points out the obvious. Common ammo calibers are owned by the majority of people and those calibers are the hardest to find in a crisis or during a panic of an upcoming crisis.
And I don't recall anyone offering to trade off any of their ammo during the shortage either.
So my recommendation to you is to put to paper what your Katrina situation means to you; What caliber of ammo you can find and afford to buy; And if you plan on lugging all that ammo around with you or use it mainly at your homestead. Then go from there.
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Ulmas, I used several boxes of 308 and 7.62X39 to supplement my unemployment check a while back when I needed some extra cash, just because no one told you doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.
And you are completely backwards on your reasoning on caliber, the ones that "Common ammo calibers are owned by the majority of people and those calibers are the hardest to find in a crisis or during a panic of an upcoming crisis."
The ones that every one is buying up as fast as it's made now, are the ones you are most likely to find available when the stores are not an option, those will be the ones that the people you run into will have, not the ones that were left sitting on the shelves.
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Ulmas, I used several boxes of 308 and 7.62X39 to supplement my unemployment check a while back when I needed some extra cash, just because no one told you doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.
And you are completely backwards on your reasoning on caliber, the ones that "Common ammo calibers are owned by the majority of people and those calibers are the hardest to find in a crisis or during a panic of an upcoming crisis."
The ones that every one is buying up as fast as it's made now, are the ones you are most likely to find available when the stores are not an option, those will be the ones that the people you run into will have, not the ones that were left sitting on the shelves.
Yup, what he said. Plus, despite the fact that Tom and JC doubt my "resolve", I will say that my choosing the weapons and calibers used by the local police and military was not a coincidence. Do not buy an SHTF weapon if you can't find ammo for it at Wal-Mart, or you're local police station or NG armory. Just my .02.
FQ13
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Another thought, don't buy a "Special" SHTF weapon, buy one that will be "All purpose" keeping yourself and companions alive may mean shooting BG's in skirmishes, but it also might mean shooting supper, get a caliber that can do both.
Also, don't write of the 223 for this purpose, if things go crazy you are more likely to find rats and squirrels than deer.
Another thought I just had, buy 2 identical rifles, set up the same, make sure they both shoot to the same point of impact then put one away with your survival stash, and use the hell out of the other. When the situation arises you have a brand new rifle that you can use in your sleep, and a worn one to either arm some one else, strip for parts, or use for trade.
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Yup, what he said. Plus, despite the fact that Tom and JC doubt my "resolve", I will say that my choosing the weapons and calibers used by the local police and military was not a coincidence. Do not buy an SHTF weapon if you can't find ammo for it at Wal-Mart, or you're local police station or NG armory. Just my .02.
FQ13
Dude. You have plan's to get ammo from cops durring a crisis!?!?! YOU ROCK!!! ;D ;D ;D
Let us know ahead of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That has got to be the best news cast of all time!!!!
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I think he is planning on taking it off bodies in the street, Not asking nicely.
Even FQ couldn't be THAT flaky. Could he ?
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I think he is planning on taking it off bodies in the street, Not asking nicely.
Even FQ couldn't be THAT flaky. Could he ?
You never can tell Tom. ;D
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I think he is planning on taking it off bodies in the street, Not asking nicely.
I will neither confirm nor deny that statement. 8)
FQ13
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Don't worry, I'm not saying you have any idea of PUTTING the bodies in the street, but , finders keepers.
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This, to me, points out the obvious. Common ammo calibers are owned by the majority of people and those calibers are the hardest to find in a crisis or during a panic of an upcoming crisis.
And I don't recall anyone offering to trade off any of their ammo during the shortage either.
Ulmas, I used several boxes of 308 and 7.62X39 to supplement my unemployment check a while back when I needed some extra cash, just because no one told you doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.
And you are completely backwards on your reasoning on caliber, the ones that "Common ammo calibers are owned by the majority of people and those calibers are the hardest to find in a crisis or during a panic of an upcoming crisis."
The ones that every one is buying up as fast as it's made now, are the ones you are most likely to find available when the stores are not an option, those will be the ones that the people you run into will have, not the ones that were left sitting on the shelves.
I agree with Tom, we didn't see it because their wasn't much of a mass need to barter for ammo, most everyone still had all their basic needs meet. You won't see Ulmas's situation until we actually see TSHF. So I would want to stock pile the Ammo I need for my weapons, and select those weapons base on what ammo I think I can find when/if I have to go mobile in my area during a bad situation. Plus if you have the most common ammo stocked at home 9mm, .40sw, 45acp, 5.56, 7.62x51, and 7.62x39 you have something can possibly barter with for food or medicine if you choose to when TSHF!
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This was in todays Tactical Wire
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/
by Tiger McKee
We get several calls at Shootrite about bringing AK's for Defensive Carbine classes, wondering if it's an acceptable rifle. My answer is always yes. The AK is an ideal fighting rifle, especially when working under adverse conditions.
The AK will function under the harshest conditions, with a minimal amount of upkeep. Bury one in the dirt, dig it up a year later, dump some motor oil in it and crack open the charging handle with your foot. Run a rag through the barrel, load and shoot.
As for ergonomics it's not as user friendly as the AR, but learning the techniques for operating it isn't difficult. One of the biggest issues is the safety. I usually handle that by keeping my right hand a little forward, and off the grip. As I depress the safety my hand drops down to hit the grip. I don't engage the safety until I'm sure the shooting is over.
Cycling the charging handle is no different from a M14 or anything like that. Come underneath the rifle and pull the charging handle to the rear with the support hand. The other option is to operate it with the primary hand, which takes your hand off the grip, but at that point you can't fire anyway, and this may be easier for some individuals. I'm not sure which is better, and depending on what position I'm firing from I've found myself using which ever hand seems to be the most efficient at that moment.
Reloads are easy. Once you realize the rifle is empty the support hand grabs a fresh mag. Bring that mag up, hit the mag release button with the new mag, and swipe out the empty. The fresh mag is rocked into place, seated, and you cycle the charging handle to chamber a round.
One issue to consider is the penetration of the 7.62x39. This round will smoke through a lot of stuff until it comes to a halt. For example a .223 round will normally penetrate halfway through a normal concrete block. The 7.62x39 will run though the block, destroying it in the process, and keep going. So it probably isn't the ideal round for home defense, especially in an urban environment. Accuracy is another thing to consider. The AK ain't a sniper rifle, but it will hit a man-size target out to 3-400 yards as long as you do your part.
There are a lot of accessories out there for the AK, but I think it's perfect as is. You just have to remember what it was designed for, and learn and practice the techniques for operating it. If you don't own one it's still a good idea to know how to work them. There are millions of them out there, and your chance of coming across one is very likely. If you're fighting with a pistol, and the opportunity to acquire an AK comes up, you need to be able to use it properly.
Tiger McKee is director of Shootrite Firearms Academy, located in northern Alabama, author of The Book of Two Guns, a staff member of several firearms/tactical publications, and an adjunct instructor for the F.B.I. (256) 582-4777 www.shootrite.org
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Tiger McKee sounds like a damn sharp fellow! I like the way the man thinks! ;)
I didn't mean to bust on quaker to bad earlier... Well... I guess I'm just not grasping how what type of ammo police carry should influence me, quaker, or anybody, other than other police. If there is ONE cop left alive, he ain't gonna be leaving dead buddies, or anything to do with their weapons out for civie's to scarf up. And police stations these days are NOT as well stocked on weapons & ammo as you might be thinking... Budget's are TIGHT! And usually police (like our military) are using calibers that are NOT ideal, but are what was pushed upon them.
In a crisis, my main objective is to avoid the police more than everybody else X10! They will be looking to confiscate, or comendier ANYTHING they can get their hands on!
Hey quaker, if you haven't read it yet, check out "One Second After"! You can download the audio book free at "audible.com" if you sign up for a temporary membership (that you can cancel later at anytime). DO IT! It's 13+ hours to listen to, and I stayed up all night unable to stop! GREAT STUFF!!!
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Taking up where BM left off .
I can't speak for the Army reserve but National guard armories may supply weapons but you'll need another source for ammo.
I had 100 M 16's in my Arms Room, but I never saw a single round of 223. When we were going to shoot some one from the Ammo section had to go down to Ft. Devens the Friday before and draw our ammo. (Devens has since closed. )
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For a SHTF senerio I'll take a direct gas impingent AR anyday! I've been using the M16/AR15 for over 26 years in very harsh enviroments (desert, saltwater diving, Apline skiing and combat). The only place where rust will develope on an AR is the barrel, front sight tower and flash hinder. Spare parts are all over the place along with magazines. I have a good chance of finding 5.56mm floating around as Camp Lejune is just to the north and Ft Bragg to the West. If you ever swim with a couple of mags and rifle, I'll take a AR over the boat anchor of the AK any day (done both)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/5th_Divers.jpg)
Whatever you decide, practice with it, shoot it enough to know that its realiable and accurate enough, then stock pile ammo, warm clothing, food, water, gas, etc.
For all those who think that they are going to hunt big game with their guns, the best round is going to be the .22LR, bow or suppressed weapon as you do not to draw attention to yourself.
CD
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From someone who walks the walk. ;D
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"For all those who think that they are going to hunt big game with their guns, the best round is going to be the .22LR, bow or suppressed weapon as you do not to draw attention to yourself."
+1! Ever hear the old myth that people can't locate you from sound if you only fire once? BULL! I've hunted deer with my friends and dad, and everytime they ever fired their guns I was always able to walk straight to them no matter where they were, or how far away (if the other guy shot, you knew he'd gotten a deer and could probably use your help).
While I've never tried to take a deer with a .22, my dad has gotten 3 that way back in the day. "Gotta be close, and get the head shot between the eye and ear."
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my first thought was .22LR just because of the utility of it. Ammo is cheaper than dirt, small so you can carry a ton of it, weapon is lighter and generally simpler, as many different bullets for them as rifles to shoot them, eg. splitting, expanding, exploding, magnum, super magnum etc. can easily make a suppressor that will mask its noise easily.
The big complaint is stopping power, but the way i see it is you can carry so many rounds that it dose not have to be a problem. as stated above, cci makes rounds that split in half and then expand, causing devastating internal injury.
.02
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My 2cents,
AR15 along with a dedicated AR22lr.
or
308 bolt gun (or larger) of your choice and a 22lr. bolt gun with the same optic as center fire system.
Opinion disclaimer. ;)
Practice and stock up/pile when possible while still having the ability to open your option bubble toward any or most hypothetical situations. Not one gun is perfect for everything, I know, but this is the better all-a-round system which is still very usable on the weekends for Fun and Training to better ones self and fill the "just in case void" well .
tex
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The .22LR is another good reason to go with the 5.56. A .22LR conversion kit is a good way to save a few bucks on ammo and still be able to train with your regular rifle. Bonus most indoor ranges will let you shoot your AR's with .22LR. ;D
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The only negative with the conversion is that you only get trigger time. Most of the other controls do not work the same so you will not be trained on the use of the controls. Point of impact can be set identical at training distance of your range set.
Also the lack of a backup rifle for the event of a part breakage is another overlooked bonus. It will be that funsaver of the weekend, lifesaver of the hypothetical catastrophe. <------- thank you spell check
tex
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and for you AK guys n gals...........
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Thanks to all for your opinions. The point regarding commonality of ammunition is well taken. I'll probably go for a .223 version of the XCR. I already have a Remington 870 and M1A .308 for defense of a fixed location. I'm primarily looking for something a little easier to carry if I need to go afield in a potentially hostile environment. The .223 caliber would allow for toting more ammo along as well.