The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: ericire12 on November 04, 2009, 02:35:40 PM
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The SR9 with the redone trigger, that is.
30 minute mark:
http://www.downrange.tv/radio/133.htm
As per Michael Bane, The Pincus hates the pre-recalled SR9 trigger -- "Hate" is the actual word used -- loves the post-recall SR9. "How come this gun doesnt suck like the other one sucked?"
(http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/2erOBh1.gif)
*The 32:50 mark was also pretty amusing ;)
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I speak the truth to power...no...wait...maybe I speak the power to truth...or the truth to Robin Trower...or or or...
mb
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It's all true.
Although he did edit my initial comments about the original SR9 so that the podcast wasn't rated "R".
-RJP
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I'm with MB on liking the XS sights for CCW, I'd be curious to hear what you think of them, having tried them on the SR9 Rob.
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/glock1.jpg?t=1257377457)
Target sights their NOT!
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Sights are for precision shooting.
As you noted, those sights aren't really good for that.
I am REALLY good friends with Ashley Emerson, the guy who came up with the Big Dot sight concept for pistols.
You have to understand the background to understand the mistake.
1. Ashley was starting from a premise that you "needed" to see the front sight before you pulled the trigger. This is a typical place to start from given the background and era in question.
2. Ashley knows more about optics and sighting systems than any other human I know. Because of this he knew that one group of guys that needed to see sights REALLY QUICKLY were dangerous big game hunters in Africa. He also knew that on their large bore double rifles, they often used large (ivory, traditionally) beads as a front sight. These beads could be picked up quickly and showed up well against the background of large dark beasts.
Now, on a rifle, you have 4 points of contact... 2 hands, body/shoulder and cheek. 4 points of contact are significantly more consistent than than the glorified 1 point of contact that you get from two hands on a pistol. This is important, because the rear sight wasn't very important to the close range hunting rifle application. The consistency of a proper mount and cheek-weld gets you "close enough" to align your eye in the "right place" behind the bead (which is 20-30 inches away) and give you enough field accuracy to hit the big beasties.
No such luck with a pistol. You NEED the rear sight to verify alignment of the pistol, which is held far away from the eye at extension. The relative difference between the front and rear sight in terms of distance from the eye isn't that great (20% increase at most for any defensive pistol) so they are somewhat close to the same focal plane (this is the reason that ghost ring sights on pistols don't "ghost" and suck, but that is whole different rant...). Because of this, the front sight needs to be significantly smaller than the opening in the rear sight in order to be "aligned" in a distinct manner.
The big dot gives you a really big front sight (go back to #1) which you cannot use for precision shooting because there isn't enough room on the gun to put a rear sight that is large enough to give you the ability to distinguish the front sight's alignment at a fine enough detail*. It was a flawed premise that yielded a product that was only successful because a large majority of the public bought into the flawed premise. Think of the big dot as the equivalent of fake relics from the holy land during the crusades. If you believe that you will be blessed forever because you have a magic splinter, you are likely to buy magic splinters if someone will sell them to you. (side note: if the guy selling the splinters really believe that they are magic, then you can't really be mad at him!)
Fast forward to the current Raison d'être for the big dot: "My eyes don't work as well as they used to, so I need a bigger/brighter front sight". On this point, I will concede that the underlying premise is at least valid. But let's return to the opening sentence in this response: Sights are for precision shooting. "Bigger and Brighter" doesn't have to mean "so big that I can't use the sights to shoot as precisely as I am capable of as efficiently as I can". The fact is that I have many students experience the fact that the big dot can very well cover up more than a 3" circle at defensive shooting distances. This means that it is physically harder to use the sight to place a round into that circle (some would say "impossible to do reliably", but that is an exaggeration. You can look for the top edge of the circle, then kentucky-windage your way a little higher... hold real steady... and place rounds consistently into targets smaller than the portion of your field of view that is obstructed by the front sight). The process for being PRECISE with a big dot is less efficient (ie- takes more time, effort and energy) than using a traditional blade & notch sight. If you really can't see any slightly bigger and much brighter front sight (there are plenty of options), then you have to admit that you probably can't be very precise under combative conditions, in which case putting a Big Dot on your pistol may be fine.
That is the long version.
The short version first articulated itself late one night around a campfire on a hunting trip with Ashley and friends in northern Colorado in 2004 or 2005:
Ashley: "So, c'mon, Rob, what do you really think of my sights?"
Rob: "Really?"
Ashley: "Yeah, I wanna know..."
Rob: "They're distracting."
Now, when you tell the guy who starts with the premise of "you must see the sight before you pull the trigger" that they are "distracting" you get a lot of "does not compute" and hilarity ensues... and we got a built in punch line that still comes up most of the time that we get together.
-RJP
* that point about not being able to get a "large enough" rear sight may NOT be true... it's just that I haven't seen a Big Dot placed inside a really wide traditional type rear notch side... as you can see in Badger's picture, you probably could fit a wide enough rear sight if you tried. Of course, then you probably would want a true BLADE that happened to be as wide as the Big Dot, because the straight edges of the Blade would be easier to be precise with than the round edges of the Dot. The width of the rear sight would be dictated by the width of the front sight, which would be dictated by the vision issues of the shooter... the smaller the better for more precision... which is what sights are for.
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Good lord that was a long post.... Badger apologize to the man!
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If I have this right, you are saying that more highly visible is more effective than bigger.
Great ! It validates the nail polish I put on my standard front blade sights ;D
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If I have this right, you are saying that more highly visible is more effective than bigger.
Great ! It validates the nail polish I put on my standard front blade sights ;D
ummmm, those are your fingernails and the morel of this story is go get a laser.
Exit Question..... How about the jumbo front sight in conjunction with no rear sight.
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Tom:
Technically, two things contribute to "easier to see" Size and Contrast. Contrast can be simplified to "brightness". So, it is a combination of the two fators. At some point, low contrast and bigger is as easy to see as high contrast and smaller. Not technically: If you can see the sight well enough with the nail polish without making it bigger, you are better off (in terms of potential for precision) than making it bigger and not painting it.
Eric,
Worse. At least with the super wide Express rear sight you have some ability to align the front and rear of the slide when you need to be more precise.
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Thanks Rob.
For the record, Back when I was Married the "sight paint" I saw a the gun show was $5.99 The ex mentioned that she had nail polish the same color and it was $1.99 I've never needed to repaint one.
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Jeesh MB, the man makes a good point! And thanks for going into the depth you did explaining it. I'll be the first to say that IMO these sights have ruined the gun for range use, where we're often competing with each other trying to hold the smallest groups on 25 yard paper. I'm regularly the last to finish shooting because with each shot I get a good sight picture, then move the gun up to cover the bull's eye with the big bead ("Kentuky windage you mentioned").
I do still like the XS's from my practicing with them in the house. The big dot does exactly what you mention. "Distracts" me from all the other things that may normally catch my eye. When sweeping the house I'm looking for two things, an intruder, and that front sight. Varying light conditions that happen in the house at night (this alone has a huge effect), things being moved, things possibly being broken and thrown about in a break in situation, all the thoughts racing through your head like. "Does this guy have a gun?, How many guys are there?, Is my family OK?, Will I be in jail when this is over?!?". This stuff and a hundred other things are ALL racing through your mind like mad! It makes a BIG differance to me to have that big white dot to focus on mentally. That white dot, and the "bad guy" need to be primary in my mind no matter how much other "traffic" is racing through my brain. When the bad guy comes into view, having the big white dot is kinda reassuring in that I KNOW I'm going to be able to find it quickly, no matter what (don't forget the XS's are tritium)... I know, sounds stupid to say. :-\
Another frame of mind in these situations may come with better, more thorough training. I honestly just don't know. While I describe a "home defense" situation here, I think many "self defense" situations may be similar.
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The perfect compromise?
Hi-Viz "Tactical" front sight.
(http://www.hivizsights.com/Assets/images/products/GL2009_small.jpg)
I use the Hi-Viz sights on my Mark III for squirrel hunting and love them!
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Rob has excellent points (which is why he's handling the firearms end of THE BEST DEFENSE)...in this case, I disagree with those points based on personal experience, personal philosophy and, sadly, on my aging eyes.
1) Virtually every decision involving a carry gun is a compromise. The reason we had/have big fat flat-blade Bo-Mar rear sights and narrow post fronts on competition pistols is that we have to make precision shots at long distances, and that combination has proven itself for making precison shots relatively quickly. Doe this mean you can't make long-range precision shots without a set of "target" sights? Not at all...but the compromise equation will change, usually in the direction of more time.
2) Guns are in many ways mission-specific...carry guns are smaller because they're easier to carry. But in accordance with Point 1, we make a series of compromises for that smaller/lighter pistol — shorter sight radius, greater perceived recoil and, as a result of those 2 factors, slower shot-to-shot "splits."
3) When a civilian, e.g. non-LEO, carries a gun for self-defense, that person "defines" his or her area of response by the choice of weapon. To use a hunting analogy, if you are hunting whitetail deer with a .357 revolver with iron sights, the gun defines the distance at which you can "guarantee" the shot. You may be able to clearly see the deer at, say, 125 yards, but the gun and cartridge combination tells you that you cannot guarantee a humane shot. Can some people make that shot dead bang? Sure. Some people also juggling running chainsaws for a living, but I'm betting that person isn't you or I.
4) I have taught people for a couple of decades to "hard focus on the front sight;" 5 million years of evolution as a hunting primate tells you to "hard focus on the threat." Which voice wins? There is a great line from my first cave diving instructor — "Never train against the operating system."
5) Outside of a square range environment, your physical limitations may addiitonally limit your area of response. Note the caveat...one of the winners of the .50 BMG 1000-yard championships a couple of years ago is legally blind. He has, however, a profound understanding of the trigger and the gun. I can make center mass 50 yard shots on the range all day long; what I can no longer do is clearly identify the target at that distance.
6) Your area of response is limited by you "lowest common denominator," which may be the gun, your physical limitations, the area in which you are forced to respond, etc.
My personal experience is that in an altercation in the "hot zone" — say a 6-foot radius circle around you — you will initially hard focus on the threat, oftentime on the gun if one has been presented. I swear I saw the grooves and lands inside the barrel of a Glock 17 that was once pointed in anger at my head. Your training will help you break that hard focus to see the target, addition threats, etc.
On a draw, I need to be able to hit that target at any point from the time the gun breaks the holster up to and including the moment I have a "sight picture." That's one of the reasons I like lasers. If I am going to look at the threat, I would prefer the target have a convenient red dot on him/her showing me where the bullet will go. Ideally, I want to go to full extension/hard sight picture...few things in the Real World are ideal.
As the gun extends toward the target, I "pick up" the front sight of the gun as it comes into my visual frame. By the time my arms are fully extended, I have a hard sight picture. With my eyesight I pick up the XS front sight very quickly.
By full extension I have already made the "shoot" decision and am in fact prepping the trigger, which will break on full extension. I fire until the threat is emded.
At the point the threat ends, I slightly lower my hands to scan for additional threats. I need to get my big fat hands and the big black gun out of my line of sight, not the big front sight.
I have run the standard fixed-time drills at GUNSITE — 3, 5, 7, 15, 20, 25 yards — with XS Sights, and my scores were the same as with a Novak-sighted 1911. That tells me the balance of speed and precision remains the same with the larger XS front. As the old African hunters proved, an express-type sight is faster for the eye to pick up under the stress of, say, a charging buffalo 5 yards away, and the deep-V seems to me to work. In fact, I have a deep-V and gold bead front on my favorite woods revolvers for that reason.
Here's the important part, and I think Rob will agree with me on this — YOUR MILEAGE WILL VARY! You have to know what works for YOU, and all either Rob or I (or anyone else) can do is provide you with an outline to learn your own limitations and what works best.
Michael B
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Another long ass post.... Badger, apologize to him too!
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Thought provoking info from both Rob and MB.
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Thought provoking info from both Rob and MB.
+1
Went to the eye doc last week and I offically have "old guy eyes" :-\ >:(
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You gotta love hearing form the experts don't you? ;D One thing I like about lasers on a defensive gun that I use for Home defense, being one of those nearsighted enough that without glasses (Worn them Since 4th grade) I can't read the T-shirt I'm wearing, is that In the middle of the night if I don't have time to grab my glasses, I won't be able to see the sights, but I can see that BIG red dot against the BG, the wall, or the trash can my German Shepherd turned over for chicken bones.
DISCLAIMER: Opinions from rednecks on the internet may be worth exactly what you paid for them.
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+1
Went to the eye doc last week and I offically have "old guy eyes" :-\ >:(
Turn that frown upside down... Maybe you didnt hear the Dr correctly... He didnt say you have old eyes. He said you now have a justifiable reason to go laser shopping :)
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Another long ass post.... Badger, apologize to him too!
Apologize for what? "You have to know what works for YOU"... XS's work for me. ;)
My issue is that I wear contacts durring the day, glasses in the evening (in case I fall asleep reading or something), and am so near sighted without one of the two on it could be either my mother in law, or the abominable snow man walking through my house at night and I wouldn't be able to tell the differance!!! (I'm pulling the trigger either way ;D)
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"Bumbles Bounce" ;D
MIL's just complain!
Ya can definately tell the difference!
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I'm just the opposite, I can read fine but I can't read the banks time and temperature from across the street (18 inch lit numbers )
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I just love my non-traditional trapezoid sights on my Steyr Pistols.
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/sdrkrelt/pistols/IMG_2421b.jpg?t=1203313194)
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If they'd have made one of those in .45 ACP I'd probably have bought one. I like how quickly I can pick up those sights.
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To borrow a phrase from MB, XS sights are "mission-specific"....they (like the original express sight) are made for hitting large targets at close range very quickly. They're not precision sights....nor are they long-range sights....but they do what they're meant to do very well. I once owned a Glock 17 with a set of XS Big Dot Tritium sights that I used for USPSA matches in my area. They were great for the close-up targets; but, when the 50yd. targets came up, they didn't work so well. I've heard that some people have had luck using a rear adjustible sight (like Millett) and sighting in for a 6 o'clock hold at 50yds, but I sold that Glock before I could try it.
It all depends on what your "mission" is.....