The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: CDR on March 10, 2007, 11:58:36 AM
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This is one of those questions to determine thought process as a visual just doesn't do it. The Weaver style push pull seems effective but do people incorporate it while not utilizing a Weaver stance? I've also heard some people place significantly more grip pressure on the non-shooting hand, say 70/30, in order to relax the shooting hand and, in turn, relieve tension from the trigger finger to allow a gentler squeeze of the trigger...sounds reasonable. Many just squeeze the shooting hand as tightly as possible up until a tremor is felt and then engage the trigger. So what works best for effective trigger and recoil control while minimizing muzzle flip?
Thanks
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I took the poll, but I find I shoot one-handed more these days.
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I took the poll, but I find I shoot one-handed more these days.
Sure.........YOU have to be different!! :)
OK, I'll add another choice. You can change your vote.
Don, I'm curious as to why you have decided to shoot more one-handed. What advantages or preferences do you find over a two-handed grip?
Thanks
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I find the Enos/Leatham grip to my liking.
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I find the Enos/Leatham grip to my liking.
Does that fall into any of the categories described in the poll? If not, could you describe the technique used?
Thanks
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Sure.........YOU have to be different!! :)
Don, I'm curious as to why you have decided to shoot more one-handed. What advantages or preferences do you find over a two-handed grip?
I practice self-defense shooting mostly now. Up close to the target. Draw from the pocket. Two quick shots. Moving away from the target (sometimes into it). You don't have to be a good shot for this. 15 feet is a long shot for me now.
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I practice self-defense shooting mostly now. Up close to the target. Draw from the pocket. Two quick shots. Moving away from the target (sometimes into it). You don't have to be a good shot for this. 15 feet is a long shot for me now.
Good idea Don for a pocket draw for sure. I'm definitely going to be adding this to my range practice routine as soon as my S&W snubby arrives. Wouldn't it also be beneficial to practice these shots two handed at times? With respect to two handed shooting, which technique do you prefer?
Thanks
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My 2 penny's
1st. Grip the pistol with the strong hand about as well as you would a claw hammer you were about to drive a nail with, whether for one handed or two handed shooting.
2nd. If possible use the support hand around the strong hand, wrapped around equal amounts of the fingers slightly pulling back with the weak hand and slightly pushing forward with the strong hand. It should feel comfortable not awkward. Your thumbs should be along side the pistol, one above the other, strong thumb on top, pointing toward the target.
3) Stance is as important as grip, feel balanced, whether moving or still, weight distribution is key. Keep the knees flexed. Watch Shooting Gallery, especially if Todd Jarret is showing you something.
4) Practice both ways and transitoning from 2 handed to one handed, strong or weak hand.
5) If you grip a pistol hard to the poing of trembling, you will find it hard to press the trigger without a sympathetic nerve reaction, trigger finger should be relaxed and independent.
6) When shooting a heavy recoil pistol, 44 magnum or heavier, the soft touch will benefit you more. Hard recoiling pistols will always win, the harder you hold them, the harder they will hit you. Allow them to recoil, but have enough grip to control it.
Keep the change
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Does that fall into any of the categories described in the poll? If not, could you describe the technique used?
Thanks
I think it falls into #2.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/combatg_100306/
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With respect to two handed shooting, which technique do you prefer?
I'm more of a #4 kind of guy. That's how I voted.
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I'm more of a #4 kind of guy. That's how I voted.
Me too.
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The push pull system seams to work best for me.
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For two handed shooting I've always been taught to use a 60/40 split on your grip, with 60% of the grip being with your support hand.
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For two handed shooting I've always been taught to use a 60/40 split on your grip, with 60% of the grip being with your support hand.
I think this makes a lot of sense. I heard someone say 70/30 once, I guess as long as the thought is there, the realization that you need to lighten up the grip pressure on the shooting hand is all that matters. It certainly does help relax the trigger finger for a straight back and gentler press of the trigger. That's why I never understood those who preach squeezing the gun as hard as you can until you reach a tremble point and then let off just a bit on the grip. I think this has the opposite and negative effect on proper trigger pull.
I'm wondering if the 60/40 or 70/30 concept coupled with a push/pull would be the most effective grip technique? It seems possible to be able to pull back with your left hand (for right handed shooters) while relaxing your trigger finger on the pushing hand since the majority of the pushing force can be provided by your arm. The left hand stabilizes the hand lock while requiring less grip pressure with your shooting hand. This could be the best of both worlds. Does anyone use this method or have any thoughts?
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When on the square range, trying different techniques is recommended. But when facing the elephant, I want what works, I can't imagine presenting my pistol, and gripping to the point of trembling and relaxing a bit while the 400 lb. gorilla has other ideas. I've been shooting competition for 20 years, and have found that there is no one great technique for all situations. Shooting silhouette out to 200 meters and using the creedmore ( lying on your back with the pistol supported on your strong hand leg ) position is proper and gives you good support and sight radius. I don't think that is good on the street, but if presented with a long range shot, and enough time it might be proper. Hand gun shooting is a lot like golf, every pistol or techniqe is proper for a particular shot, just like golf clubs. You could shoot a complete round of golf with a putter, or a baseball bat, why would we do that, just like on the street, because thats what we have. Street skills means, efficiency, including running away.
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I teach #2 and we've have had great results in competition with it...
Here's a photo of me coaching an 8 yr. old. Notice how his left arm is higher than the right:
(http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671)
That's a .40 caliber SVI he's shooting, notice the recoil control:
(http://www.tacticalshooting.com/images/2006_03.JPG)
Cheers, :)
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I teach #2 and we've have had great results in competition with it...
Here's a photo of me coaching an 8 yr. old. Notice how his left arm is higher than the right:
(http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671)
That's a .40 caliber SVI he's shooting, notice the recoil control:
(http://www.tacticalshooting.com/images/2006_03.JPG)
Cheers, :)
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
Thanks D.R.
Question.....do you think the method you teach (number 2 in the poll) can be combined with a push/pull technique (number 3 in the poll) to take advantage of the best of both worlds? Seems that it would work as you can push with your shooting arm and relax the grip on your shooting hand somewhat as you are simultaneously pulling with your support hand to create the lockup. As the shooting hand is more relaxed, and therefore the trigger finger as well, this would allow for a gentle press of the trigger while taking advantage of the push/pull method of stability.
Thanks
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I teach #2 and we've have had great results in competition with it...
Here's a photo of me coaching an 8 yr. old. Notice how his left arm is higher than the right:
(http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671)
That's a .40 caliber SVI he's shooting, notice the recoil control:
(http://www.tacticalshooting.com/images/2006_03.JPG)
Cheers, :)
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
I have been noticing that when I draw for dry fire for USPSA and IDPA practice i am moving my left arm higher than my right. I just noticed this recently. Could this be a natural progression to the Fist Fire technique? It feels more comfortable and I notice a higher hit factor with it.
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We're seeing more and more Top Shooters using the "Reverse Weaver" as shown below...
Notice that the left arm/elbow/shoulder is higher than the right in this photo:
(http://www.tacticalshooting.com/images/rick.jpg)
Fist-Fire Instructor & Grand Master Shooter
Rick Simes in "Reverse Weaver" Shooting Position
It's not REALLY a "Push-Pull" isometric like the Weaver, but there is a little bit of tension on the of left arm bicep as we push the strong hand into the "Roll Over" wrist lock. This allows the strong hand grip to be more relaxed and thus capable of operating the trigger finger much faster and with much more dexterity. 8)
Looks like we need a "Technique" forum, eh?
DR
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I asked Mas Ayoob in '88 or '89 if you were supposed to get a push-pull tension going in isocoles, because I was very used to Weaver and the push-pull felt natural.
"Yeah, you can do that," he said, and that was the ONLY time I've ever heard or read of that dynamic being mentioned until this thread.
As for why shoot one-handed? It's fun, mainly, and good to know, for another thing. Two years ago I came down with a very mysterious case of tennis elbow. It didn't hurt all the time, but certain positions I'd put my arm in hurt like a bee-yotch. Shaking hands with anyone was excrutiating, and there was one particular doorknob at work that could almost make me cry (but only that one doorknob, for some odd reason). I had no problem shooting rifles from any position, or handguns from a bench, but shooting a pistol either right-handed or two-handed strong hand was impossible. Any pistol I wanted to shoot that year had to be left-hand only. It was a blast! I was soon keeping all shots on a sheet of typing paper at 50 feet, with a good 80% or more of them in a 4" square on the paper. I canted the gun over to use my master (right) eye and this put the shots a little high and right, which I learned to hold off for. Being able to run the gun left-handed is a good skill to have in my hip pocket just in case I ever really NEED it. ;)
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I have been noticing that when I draw for dry fire for USPSA and IDPA practice i am moving my left arm higher than my right. I just noticed this recently. Could this be a natural progression to the Fist Fire technique? It feels more comfortable and I notice a higher hit factor with it.
In Fist-Fire we have (3) BASIC levels of weapons presentation which are (3) entirely different Shooting Positions. We start in Guard (Retention), progress to Partial Extension (Reverse Weaver) and then onto Full Extension (which is technically a Reverse Chapman type position, where the left elbow is locked straight and the right elbow is slightly bent to absorb recoil).
(http://www.tacticalshooting.com/images/glock.jpg)
Fist-Fire Instructor Paul Sharp firing a 180 Power Factor Load. Glock 21 is in Full Recoil
(notice empty case leaving the ejection port).
DR
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I asked Mas Ayoob in '88 or '89 if you were supposed to get a push-pull tension going in isocoles, because I was very used to Weaver and the push-pull felt natural.
"Yeah, you can do that," he said, and that was the ONLY time I've ever heard or read of that dynamic being mentioned until this thread.
Great minds think alike...........now, does anyone actually employ the isocoles coupled with a push/pull AND a tighter grip on the supporting hand than the shooting hand? I haven't tried this yet at the range, but in dry firing it feels rather good as it relaxes my trigger finger while providing a nice lockup.
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Speaking of one handed shooting...SIGARMS Academy is holding
Single Hand Only Shooting Apr. 21 (Epping, NH) http://sigarmsnews.com/dbm83/l.html?39271&124074&cid=173&mm=3&yy=2007 (http://sigarmsnews.com/dbm83/l.html?39271&124074&cid=173&mm=3&yy=2007)
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Speaking of one handed shooting...SIGARMS Academy is holding
Single Hand Only Shooting Apr. 21 (Epping, NH) http://sigarmsnews.com/dbm83/l.html?39271&124074&cid=173&mm=3&yy=2007 (http://sigarmsnews.com/dbm83/l.html?39271&124074&cid=173&mm=3&yy=2007)
Don,
What do you find the most effective way to grip a pistol or revolver one handed? By this I mean how much pressure should be exerted in the fingers or palm versus just gripping as hard as you can. How do you keep a relaxed trigger finger to get a good press going? Any recommendations? I want to start practicing at the range one-handed as well and will be doing it both righty and lefty.
Thanks
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Don,
What do you find the most effective way to grip a pistol or revolver one handed?
I have a firm grip on the gun (like a good firm, manly handshake) and alot finger on the trigger. You have to remember, I'm not shooting for groups, I'm not shooting 20 feet away, I'm not using sights. I'm drawing from a pocket holster and putting 2-3 rounds into a target 2-5 feet away. I have a home range so it helps for this type of shooting. Guys at the indoor range said, nope not here.
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I have a firm grip on the gun (like a good firm, manly handshake) and alot finger on the trigger. You have to remember, I'm not shooting for groups, I'm not shooting 20 feet away, I'm not using sights. I'm drawing from a pocket holster and putting 2-3 rounds into a target 2-5 feet away. I have a home range so it helps for this type of shooting. Guys at the indoor range said, nope not here.
Screw the grip.............I want to hear about the HOME range!!!! :o Nice!!
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Screw the grip.............I want to hear about the HOME range!!!! :o Nice!!
It's a mound of dirt that needs to be several feet higher!
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It's a mound of dirt that needs to be several feet higher!
Hey....I've got a home range too!!!
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I shoot 1 handed all the time. I had a car accident that paralized me from the chest down. (t-3) Consequently it's very very hard to hold my hands in front of me much less hold any kind of weight. I have tried many times and I look like Barny Fife and I will hit everything except the target infront of me. To me the best way to shoot 1 handed is to follow these general steps.
1) Tight grip on the gun.
2) Bend elbow slightly. If you hold your arm out ridged, it puts extra strain on your elbow.
3) Aim.
4) exhale
5) Pull trigger slowly.
I am still working on being able to shoot fast. This is very difficult to do. I need to take some pictures of my targets because I have gotten pretty good. Groups are in the the size of a coffie cup, small plate at 10 yards.. Your strong arm is doing the shooting, the other one is working as a counter balance. I grip the wheel of my chair, I have seen some people tense up their fist and hold it to their chest. Why I have no idea. Use it as a counter balance instead.
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I shoot 1 handed all the time. I had a car accident that paralized me from the chest down. ( To me the best way to shoot 1 handed is to follow these general steps.
1) Tight grip on the gun.
2) Bend elbow slightly. If you hold your arm out ridged, it puts extra strain on your elbow.
3) Aim.
4) exhale
5) Pull trigger slowly.
Groups are in the the size of a coffie cup, small plate at 10 yards..
Dude, I'd say you are one fine shot!
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I have seen some people tense up their fist and hold it to their chest. Why I have no idea.
Ayoob's book Stressfire explains the reason for this technique. The people you've seen doing it are either LFI grads or have been trained by LFI grads or have read the book.
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Dude, I'd say you are one fine shot!
Wheels,
That's pretty good shooting! 8)
We've had a lot of handicapped people (even some in wheel chairs) come through the Academy and shoot quite well with the "Guard" both one and two handed.
Cheers,
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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Paging Mr. Bane. Paging Mr. Bane.
I think we need a show with D. R. Middlebrooks!
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The "Ayoob" wedge is a favorite of mine because my hands are small for the G-22 ,for my 1911 regular overlap 2 hand grip and point shoot with thumbs, if necessary.
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just putting this one out there, Todd Jerret has a video on Para web site and this has worked the numbers right off of my personal best times. I will try to find the link for yall.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
I sure hope I did that right, I am far form savy w/ the net, this is the video that helped me very much. hope to get the FistFire system soon and report to yall.
tex
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What works for me is strong left hand when shooting 2 hand with a relaxed grip on my strong hand, with a double stack I use the " Ayoob wedge" To control muzzel flip. I like to shoot the "zipper" and let the recoil ride the rounds up when off hand.
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Now i am going to start off by stating that i have yet to buy D.R.'s FF system, but i tried the simple technique that he stated to wit the off elbow and shoulder is higher than the strongside. Well let me tell yall the worst place to try new techniques is in competition. Well today at a local bowling-pin comp. I tried it and low and behold.....wait for it.....yup i broke my personal best. Not only that, my peers were asking what my special secret was. Needless to say I led them on a little bit. Ammo change, gun lube change, new vitamins, a whole bunch of B.S.!!!!! Let me say it out louD.R.'s system R O C K S!!!! What a perfect tip man. I have almost gaurenteed the repeat championship for '07 with todays performance. Thanks MB & Marshal for the site and a BIGthanks to D.R.! Serious no joke.
tex