The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Jonny Gib on November 06, 2009, 09:46:38 AM

Title: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jonny Gib on November 06, 2009, 09:46:38 AM: What are the legal issues one might encounter if you use a single action revolver in a self-defense situation? I have read it is best to use a double action only revolver for self-defense because of issues that might ariise in court.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: tombogan03884 on November 06, 2009, 10:32:09 AM: Use what you have. You have to be alive to care about legal ramifications.
Where Single Action is seen as an issue is not from the Legal view point, after all, it's a cowboy gun, like John Wayne used.
There are however SAFETY concerns with a cocked pistol that has no safety, any flinch or stumble has the potential to launch a bullet in an unintended direction.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Badgersmilk on November 06, 2009, 12:05:13 PM: Sure beats not having anything! But there's A LOT out there that beats a single action. Kinda on the BIG side for CCW.

Saw a guy do a quick draw with a Ruger Blackhawk and shoot an apple in a quarter of a second the other day... Don't know anybody who's gonna beat that with anything else.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: philw on November 06, 2009, 04:20:51 PM: Quote from: tombogan03884 on November 06, 2009, 10:32:09 AM
Use what you have. You have to be alive to care about legal ramifications.
Where Single Action is seen as an issue is not from the Legal view point, after all, it's a cowboy gun, like John Wayne used.
There are however SAFETY concerns with a cocked pistol that has no safety, any flinch or stumble has the potential to launch a bullet in an unintended direction.

better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

this might be a good question for MB to have in his CCW video's that he is doing up at the moment
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: tombogan03884 on November 06, 2009, 04:24:12 PM: Phil, I just posted what I have heard from MB and Tom Gresham ;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: philw on November 06, 2009, 04:44:00 PM: Quote from: tombogan03884 on November 06, 2009, 04:24:12 PM
Phil, I just posted what I have heard from MB and Tom Gresham ;D

yea I have heard them both say that,

what I was meaning is for him to include it in the DVD he was talking about as I have heard it mentioned a few times in the past
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: PegLeg45 on November 06, 2009, 05:51:38 PM: I've seen folks who could shoot SA's faster than a 1911.....hell, Jesse Abbate's dad shoots steel plate matches with a pair of SA's instead of DA revolvers or self-loaders.

The kicker to the thing, regarding SD, is reloading in a 'time of crisis'.....that is the SA's weakest point....IMHO.

It all boils down to what you have and what you can do with it.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Hazcat on November 06, 2009, 05:59:05 PM: Quote from: PegLeg45 on November 06, 2009, 05:51:38 PM
I've seen folks who could shoot SA's faster than a 1911.....hell, Jesse Abbate's dad shoots steel plate matches with a pair of SA's instead of DA revolvers or self-loaders.

The kicker to the thing, regarding SD, is reloading in a 'time of crisis'.....that is the SA's weakest point....IMHO.

It all boils down to what you have and what you can do with it.

Uncle Walt Rausch always says "If the first 5 rounds didn't solve it, what makes you think 5 more will?" ;)
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: PegLeg45 on November 06, 2009, 06:01:26 PM: Quote from: Hazcat on November 06, 2009, 05:59:05 PM
Uncle Walt Rausch always says "If the first 5 rounds didn't solve it, what makes you think 5 more will?" ;)

That's what I was gettin' to with:

Quote
It all boils down to what you have and what you can do with it.

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Hazcat on November 06, 2009, 06:03:15 PM: OOPS, sorta missed that!

Damn dirty glasses! (That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. ;D )
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: PegLeg45 on November 06, 2009, 06:06:15 PM: Quote from: Hazcat on November 06, 2009, 06:03:15 PM
OOPS, sorta missed that!

Damn dirty glasses! (That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. ;D )

I c a n t y p e s l o w e r.

;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Hazcat on November 06, 2009, 06:19:02 PM: T h a n k Y o u !

ya smart ass!

;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Michael Bane on November 06, 2009, 06:50:29 PM: And I believe EVERY SINGLE WORD Uncle Walt says!!!

We have an episode of SHOOTING GALLERY on the GUNSITE single action self-defense class, and it will really open people's eyes! The key issue is reloading...you gotta get to cover for the reload. Fastest is rounds on your belt, load 2 at a time. I can run an SA Ruger not that much slower than a 1911.

I have a Cimarron .44 Special that I've carried on the road to film cowboy events...I carry it in a Mernickle high-ride that conceals really well. I carry it with 200-gr Corbon DPX...I believe that'll get me home at night!!!

mb
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: twyacht on November 06, 2009, 06:53:35 PM: I don;t feel uncomfortable with my 45Colt SA loaded with Winchester Silvertips HP's in a home SD situation.

I have rotated one between my other SA/DA .357 from time to time.

The key is PRACTICE. Familiarity with any weapon is very beneficial. Is using it like routine, half awake, in the dark, not being able to see the front sight and being consistent at point shooting.

Re-Cocking the hammer in a safe, fluid motion..etc,...

Not my first choice for carry by any means, mines to damn big. but for home defense, it is certainly a fight ending caliber.

45Colt Silvertips even work on werewolves,...

What MB said.. ::)
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: PegLeg45 on November 06, 2009, 07:07:11 PM: +1 on the .44 spl Cor-Bons.

And don't get me wrong, I would not feel under-gunned with any of my SA's..... it would just depend on the circumstances as to when and where I chose to carry one. When I carry a SA, I carry .44 special Cor-Bon's in my short-barreled Super Blackhawk.
I carry one around when out and about on our property, or when riding dirt roads on the ATV and never think twice about whether it's adequate protection. I've even worn it to town under a coat.

Quote from: Hazcat on November 06, 2009, 06:19:02 PM
T h a n k Y o u !

ya smart ass!

I try. ;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Badgersmilk on November 07, 2009, 07:42:49 AM: Built to purpose.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/082442814087.html

Neat stuff!
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jonny Gib on November 07, 2009, 07:48:02 AM: Thank you for the input. Much appriciated. And MB thank you for all that you do!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Hazcat on November 07, 2009, 07:51:23 AM: Quote from: Badgersmilk on November 07, 2009, 07:42:49 AM
Built to purpose.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/082442814087.html

Neat stuff!

Love to have one of those or a Ruger (better yet!) http://www.ruger.com/products/vaqueroDE/specSheets/5120.html

or in .357

http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consumers/subsites/inven_product.asp?dealer_id=62832&item=5126&instock=all&manufact_combo=Ruger&mod_ser_combo=Vaquero&category_combo=1&model=Vaquero&g_type=None&act_type=&finish_type=None&calib_combo=None&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=None&left_handed=&youth=&Offset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: twyacht on November 07, 2009, 08:09:57 AM: When I win those Vaquero's, I'll be sure to let you all know... ;)
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Combat Diver on November 07, 2009, 09:20:09 AM: Quickest reload is another gun! Hence pack two six shooters........ ;D

CD
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Michael Bane on November 07, 2009, 11:24:54 AM: "Quickest reload is ALWAYS another gun!"
— Jim Cirillo

mb
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: seeker_two on November 07, 2009, 11:38:20 AM: Like I've asked before: "What makes a 230gr. .45Colt/ACP(or 158gr. .357MAG) bullet any less effective coming out of the barrel of a single-action revolver than from a double-action revolver?"...... 8)
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Michael Bane on November 07, 2009, 11:46:33 AM: There is a certain humor to the fact that some "experts" wax poetic about the .357 or .44 Special in a 5-shot DA platform, typically carried without reloads, while poo-poo'ing an SA .357, .44 or .45 5-shot (or 6 in the case of a transfer bar Ruger).

mb
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jackel on November 07, 2009, 07:19:31 PM: why stop at two guns?
The BG may have 15 buddies.

(http://andy.gamerscircle.org/images/1188634184_l.jpg)

;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jackel on November 07, 2009, 07:21:09 PM: just occurred to me that they are airsoft guns. maybe a SA would be fine then. ::)
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: PegLeg45 on November 07, 2009, 07:26:44 PM: Quote from: Jackel on November 07, 2009, 07:21:09 PM
just occurred to me that they are airsoft guns. maybe a SA would be fine then. ::)

The Daisy Red Ryder is a nice touch. ;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: 1911 Junkie on November 07, 2009, 07:36:23 PM: Droz

;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: twyacht on November 07, 2009, 08:09:52 PM: Quote from: PegLeg45 on November 07, 2009, 07:26:44 PM
The Daisy Red Ryder is a nice touch. ;D

Just don't shoot your eye out,... ;)
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jonny Gib on November 07, 2009, 08:41:48 PM: click, click, pssst..... sound of an airsoft sixgun ;D nice pic.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jonny Gib on November 07, 2009, 09:36:24 PM: Thank you all for your input. I realize to use what you have, anything you have, to protect yourself and loved ones and keep everyone above ground. Just wanderd how the courts have treated people in the past that have had to use their single actions to defend themselves. I have read alot to only use DOA revolvers for SD or bad things can happen to you in court after the situation is over. I feel it should not matter what you use as long as everyone survives the bad situation. Sad that it should matter in court.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Hazcat on November 07, 2009, 09:50:13 PM: JG,

I have never heard or read anything about it being bad to use a single action as far as the law and court. In fact I would think (JMO) that it would look better for you. Heck it's just an old cowboy / hunting gun.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: TAB on November 07, 2009, 09:56:26 PM: Quote from: Hazcat on November 07, 2009, 09:50:13 PM
JG,

I have never heard or read anything about it being bad to use a single action as far as the law and court. In fact I would think (JMO) that it would look better for you. Heck it's just an old cowboy / hunting gun.

Being a "cowboy" could be a bad thing
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: tombogan03884 on November 07, 2009, 10:05:33 PM: Tell that to the people who grew up watching JW and Roy Rodgers.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jonny Gib on November 07, 2009, 10:13:08 PM: Have read that even law enforcement agencies in the past had to switch to DAO guns due to issues in court. Heard you should never cock the hammer back on a DA revolver in SD situation. If you did, would it not just be like a single action. Why would it matter? Is it because of the prosecutors and liability? Is this even an issue to worry about? Thanks
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: tombogan03884 on November 07, 2009, 11:08:25 PM: According to Ayoob cocked makes it less safe and you did it on purpose
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jonny Gib on November 07, 2009, 11:26:24 PM: If you pull your gun on somebody it better be a life or death situation, anyway, so why would it matter? Am I diggin too deep here or should I just not worry about this?
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: tombogan03884 on November 08, 2009, 01:42:20 AM: Because if you are investigating a noise during the night you do not know if you are in a situation at all, walking around with a cocked pistol in the dark you could very well trip over something and wind up shooting your self or another family member.
Don't worry about it Jonny, If all you have is a Single action that's what you use, if you have a DA/SA get used to firing it double action, cocking it to fire single action is more appropriate to bullseye shooting where the light trigger pull aids pinpoint accuracy, where as when facing an assailant you have a target area about (face on ) 10 inches by 10 inches at much closer range.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: twyacht on November 08, 2009, 07:12:38 AM: booger hook off bang switch, whether SA or any other weapon. remember that your family pet, one of your kids, or spouses might come around a corner, and a startled reflex may lead to a tragedy.

Have a plan. If you have a house full, ie, wife, kids, pets, you need to really concentrate on the most lethal weapon in the house:

Your brain. Involve them in what you will do in the event a window is broken, a door is pried open, something goes "bump" in the night.

The layout of your house apt. condo, townhome, etc,.. kids on one side, you on the other, etc,...

Since it gets darker earlier now, turn the lights off, and with an UNLOADED firearm, (repeat UNLOADED), "tactically" sweep your house. Defensive positions, possible points a BG would enter, exterior walls, interior adjoining bedrooms, etc,...

Where would you make your last stand? Where's your cell phone? Where's your family?

A lot to consider. If it's just you, than it's different.

JMHO and .02cents.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: MikeBjerum on November 08, 2009, 07:24:41 AM: Being busy I haven't been able to follow everything real in depth, but I have skimmed these pages and am going to jump in anyway - Forgive me if I repeat someone.

Single action / double action doesn't matter in the real world. If a prosecutor is going to take issue with a single action, he will find something wrong with any gun you use. Remember that their job is to get you one way or another whether it makes sense or not.

A 1911 is a single action gun, and I haven't heard anywhere that we shouldn't use them ::)

Someone else said "keep your buger hook off the bang switch." That is the most important with any gun - single or double. Guns are as safe as their operators, so use what you are good with and can trust your life to. Don't worry about the litigation, because even if you don't carry or do anything they will sue you for not stopping the guy before he goes after someone else ... damn lawyers!
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: seeker_two on November 08, 2009, 07:53:24 AM: Quote from: tombogan03884 on November 08, 2009, 01:42:20 AM
Because if you are investigating a noise during the night you do not know if you are in a situation at all, walking around with a cocked pistol in the dark you could very well trip over something and wind up shooting your self or another family member.

Then why walk around with it cocked? SAA's are designed to be cocked quickly either with one hand or two, and cocking a SAA takes as much time as taking the thumb safety off a 1911.

Adapt your tactics to your equipment....
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: tombogan03884 on November 08, 2009, 08:11:53 AM: For crying out loud, I'm passing on what Police Officer, Instructor, and Expert witness Ayoob advises. Also, SA revolvers, UNLIKE 1911's, don't have a thumb safety.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: MikeBjerum on November 08, 2009, 02:26:21 PM: Quote from: tombogan03884 on November 08, 2009, 08:11:53 AM
For crying out loud, I'm passing on what Police Officer, Instructor, and Expert witness Ayoob advises. Also, SA revolvers, UNLIKE 1911's, don't have a thumb safety.

Ture, but my thumb safety comes off once I clear the holster. It's the bugger hook's relationship the the bang switch that makes it safe or dangerous.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: texcaliber on November 08, 2009, 04:55:45 PM: both of you make valid points but tom's has merit to the post.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: seeker_two on November 08, 2009, 07:45:50 PM: Quote from: texcaliber on November 08, 2009, 04:55:45 PM
both of you make valid points but tom's has merit to the post.

How?....he took my point about a SAA's ability to be cocked as quickly as a 1911's thumb safety can be taken off and started looking for thumb safeties on SAA's..... ::)
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: texcaliber on November 08, 2009, 08:04:33 PM: Quote from: seeker_two on November 08, 2009, 07:45:50 PM
How?....he took my point about a SAA's ability to be cocked as quickly as a 1911's thumb safety can be taken off and started looking for thumb safeties on SAA's..... ::)

You were speaking of the "Ability" of the SA- which i agree with the Actions ability

TomB is quoting Ayoob's experience in legal ramifications. -which i agree DA could argue against us.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: fullautovalmet76 on November 08, 2009, 08:22:33 PM: Just forget all of this crap and get a Glock for goodness sake!

;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: tombogan03884 on November 08, 2009, 08:23:29 PM: Seeker Two Listen to this link, Then figure it out for yourself

http://cdn4.libsyn.com/guntalk/081026guntalkB.mp3?nvb=20091109021106&nva=20091110022106&t=099dc21ba4a93d87542f0
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: Jonny Gib on November 08, 2009, 08:39:33 PM: Excellent listen. Thanks good infoTB
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: tombogan03884 on November 08, 2009, 09:03:01 PM: Glad it helped ;D
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: texcaliber on November 08, 2009, 09:24:00 PM: Seriously, if you had to use a Colt SAA worry about the ramifications after you point out evidence and hired the BEST counsel your money could buy. Defend yourself in MA against a known felon (with a bloody hatchet, the local girl scouts as witnesses and CCTV video for your defense) with anything and I mean ANYTHING that goes bang or cuts and the victim will be cuffed and stuffed and might see a reasonable bail posted. Maybe not though.

You have got to understand the concept of single action for SD. It is not what the "gun culture" knows, it is what or how the DA paints the picture to the Local Media and the Prosecution does the same for the jury.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: MikeBjerum on November 08, 2009, 09:33:00 PM: If all it is about is how the DA paints the picture to the media and prosecutes and that is all you are worried about, don't carry anything or defend yourself. Just bend over and take it like a sheep :o I will continue to carry whatever is legal and protect myself if necessary. Someone is always going to paint me as the bad guy, and I'll just have to deal with that. But, at least I'll stand a better chance of being alive to deal with it.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: 1911 Junkie on November 08, 2009, 09:44:50 PM: JMHO

Justified is justified, doesn't matter if you are useing a GE minigun or a rock.
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: PegLeg45 on November 08, 2009, 10:14:25 PM: Quote from: 1911 Junkie on November 08, 2009, 09:44:50 PM
JMHO

Justified is justified, doesn't matter if you are useing a GE minigun or a rock.

You got that right.

Now if only the 'gutless wonders' in the court system looked at it that way........
Title: Re: Single action for self-defense?
Post by: seeker_two on November 09, 2009, 04:49:16 AM: Quote from: 1911 Junkie on November 08, 2009, 09:44:50 PM
JMHO

Justified is justified, doesn't matter if you are useing a GE minigun or a rock.

Exactly....if a prosecuter has a mad-on against gun owners, he'll make a capital case out of using a BB gun.