The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on November 07, 2009, 10:27:01 PM
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5.7 is a relatively new caliber, there has not been much feed back on it's performance, there was a discussion going on about it's apparent performance and because Rob didn't apparently like the reaction to his snarky sounding comment he locked the thread, this is not the first thread he has locked when he didn't like the way it was going, Whats with THAT ?
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Tom,
I'm pretty picky about the threads in the D&T section... that thread had gone back & forth for a long time. Most recently, we got to spurious commentary, praise for officer Munley, linked articles and practical jokes between members.
There is plenty of room to discuss the 5.7 in the specific light of the new information from this past week and a new thread could be started now to do so, if you like. That one had gone on long enough and didn't show any signs of getting any better soon.
When I asked that the D&T forum be created and offered to moderate it, it was under the specific goal of not becoming another mess of uneducated and unsubstantiated opinion. There is plenty of that on the net already.
Keep in mind that I lock threads when they are clearly off topic, when they aren't related to D&T (or maybe have stopped being related to D&T) or, as you said, "I don't like the way they are going". The last category is a bit more subjective, but it usually relates to the quality of the opinions being made... judged most often by the quality of the information supporting those opinions.
You might want to re-read the "guidelines" in that sub-forum.
-RJP
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I feel a poo poo storm coming on......
Everybody get's a little on them when those things blow by....
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Well maybe us uneducated types should just avoid those "intellectual" areas
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In the last six weeks, 4 threads have been closed:
-One was 12 pages long.
-One was 6 pages long, had gone one for months and was getting repetitive. There was a ton of good info that was risking getting watered down.
-Another was turned into a "I like this instructor more than that one", after an initially good conversation was started. I chimed in and warned everyone to stay on topic... that was ignored by at least two participants who continued to discuss people not the topic, thread closed.
-Lastly, the most recent one on the 5.7. It was 9 pages long and half of today's posts were in regard to the response to the active shooter at Ft. Hood, which deserves its own topic. Of the last few posts before the thread was closed, most of them were about one member using the term "clip" and another member reprimanding him for it.
Keep in mind that, as I mentioned in a response to a nasty PM I got earlier, I have been talking about guns and related issues online since 300 baud modems and BBS's. I've seen a lot of threads go from bad to worse quickly and I've seen the reputations that those forums which allow it get.
I'd rather err on the side of closing threads of questionable value to those who may run a search in the future looking for life & death information.
If nothing else, it allows everyone to take a breath and start a new thread that might be more focused or more thought out.
Yes, I do desire a little higher level of discourse, but I don't think you should think of it as an area to be avoided.
Here is the pertinent part of the POSTING GUIDELINES notice at the D&T Forum:
Another update to remind everyone that this forum will have a different level of accountability for the posters than may be common in other areas of DRTV.
These are matters of life and death and we hope that people are coming here to learn. Please be sure to have examples to back up statements of fact and don't get your feelings hurt if your statements are challenged.
Statements of Opinion are usually WELCOME. Examples:
I like Glocks.
I don't like Glocks.
Those would be better and more valuable with explanations of "why?". Examples:
I like Glocks, and I find them easier to shoot than XDs because the grip area is a bit thicker.
I don't like Glocks because the grips are too square for my hand.
Statements of fact that are known to be wrong will be corrected or challenged. Examples:
Glocks Never Malfunction.
Glocks Always Malfunction with hollowpoints.
*******
Lastly, to steal a line from the founder of "The Firing Line" (where I've been on "staff" in one capacity of another for over a decade):
Think Twice, Post Once.
-RJP
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Well maybe us uneducated types should just avoid those "intellectual" areas
Then who's gonna post anything?..... :D
Good points, Rob. In the last 5.7 thread, I was just remarking that I was reconsidering my position on the 5.7 round from a pistol. Perhaps I should have clarified.....I think it is a great close-range, anti-personnel round from the P90 platform d/t the fact that the longer barrel allows it to achieve velocities similar to the 5.56 round at 200-300yds....and it can use quality bullets. I had my doubts about its effectiveness from a shorter barrel like the Five-Seven. The Ft. Hood attack demonstrated (at least at this time) that it performs at least as well as most non-magnum pistol loads. I plan to follow the forensic reporting as much as I can to see further results.
But...as always...superior mindset, planning, and marksmanship are more important than the equipment used....just check out the single-action-revolver thread on that....
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That dog ain't hunting Rob.
Haz raised a valid point about the performance of the CALIBER, to which you replied with irrelevancies about the platform used to deliver it. Perhaps capacity and recoil DID enter into Hasans selection, So what, he's a nut job. then you finished up with a snarky sounding comment
"I'm sure if he had a 1911 and (had to do 10 reloads) and manage recoil all 40 would be dead.."
Probably not, but I'll bet money they would not have been "running around" or aiding other casualties as reported in some of the linked articles you seem to find fault with, (Myself, I don't see anything wrong with linking to further information, )
nor did you address the issues that I raised:
"To bring this back on topic, I will mention that the .223/5.56MM was developed using the same thought process as the 5.7, small high velocity round, and troops have been cursing them as barely adequate at best for the past 40+ years.
Every person with experience that I have listened to said they did not remember hearing the gun go off nor did they remember the recoil, so while those may be of interest on the range or plinking squirrels they seem irrelevant in a self defense weapon.
And when addressing the 20 round capacity, I just read a quote from Walt Rauch "If you can't solve the problem with 5 rounds, what makes you think five more (in this case 15 ) will do it".
Then of course there is plain old common sense, assuming effective hits, bigger holes bleed faster.
I may someday own a 5.7, but it will be for squirrels and targets, I'll trust my LIFE to bigger rounds."
Since the original topic, opened in MAY, was "Is there any real-life information on how the FN 5.7 round performs in a self defense situation? Is this a round worth looking at for that purpose or is it too small?"
It appears that the round leaves an insufficiently large wound channel as it over penetrates which means No it's NOT any good for a self defense situation where the requirement is to STOP an attack immediately.
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It appears that the round leaves an insufficiently large wound channel as it over penetrates which means No it's NOT any good for a self defense situation where the requirement is to STOP an attack immediately.
THAT I agree with to a large degree.
...and if this were the D&T forum, I'd clip it out and start a new thread on the efficacy of the 5.7 for SD as I locked this one. :)
-RJP
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I'm a new guy here, but have frequented online forums almost every day since Algore invented the Internet. I've found that each forum has its own personality, with some being so strictly managed I feel like I'm in a library or a church and others more relaxed, like sitting in a bar. My very first gun forum was the old Shooters.com, where I made many friends, some of whom have remained friends to this day. Some of us called ourselves the CTASHRs, an acronym that stood for "Crazier Than A S.H (outhouse) Rat" and came about during some pretty wild discussions that often involved a troll or two deliberately trying to mess with our heads.
I sometimes miss those the wild, untamed days, as I miss some of the strong personalities there, such as Flowerchild and Don Nelson (DonOTMW, the initials stood for "of too many words"). Don, whom we elected "mayor of Shooters.com," died not long before the forum itself passed away.
I guess I've matured a tad since those days, as I now prefer fora that are frequented by folks who clearly know whereof they speak. I don't even mind the strict enforcement on some of these sites, so long as they continue to offer valuable knowledge and expert opinions. But I also enjoy sites that are less formal. Until I stumbled across this thread, I'd found Down Range to be a site frequented by people who know what they're talking about and who express themselves in a friendly manner.
The very name of this room - Down Range Cafe - suggests a more relaxed atmosphere than, say, a room devoted to a particular type of firearm or to Second Amendment politics or other topics not as inviting of informal banter.
So I was surprised to read Rob's explanation of how he manages threads and what he expects to find in them. I don't know Rob, nor does he know me, but in the spirit of "cafe," I'll risk being seen as brash to say, "Rob, no offense, bud, but I think the coffee's getting a little cold."
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well said Clark. i liked the coffee part ;D
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Now CKent went and peed in RP's cereal bowl. :o
Nice. 8)
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Well, Tex, it appears I peed in my own cereal bowl. Shoulda taken Rob's advice and thought twice, or at least checked a little further, before I punched the submit button, as I didn't realize the locked thread under discussion was in another room.
Ahem.
Oh, well, it was fun to reminisce a little about Shooters.com. No harm done, I trust. Actually, the coffee's pretty warm over here. ;D
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I will not hold it against ya.............can not speak for the other folks though. :)
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I liked that "Of to Many Words" screen name, but I can't think of any one HERE that would fit ;D
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I liked that "Of to Many Words" screen name, but I can't think of any one HERE that would fit ;D
I will shut up now! ;)
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Comparing post counts I don't think YOU are the motormouth ;D
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Comparing post counts I don't think YOU are the motormouth ;D
Sayeth Tolstoy...... ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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;D
Don't get me started on Russian writers, 40 pages to say the sun was going down ???
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No problem, Kent... No one would let me moderate a "Cafe" ... ;D.
BUT, if I had a cafe, it would serve Arrogant Bastard Ale (Stone Brewery) and 5 Hour Energy Drinks and would have bouncers.
-RJP
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Arrogant Bastard's not a bad brew, but I should hope you'd include Flying Dog Gonzo Imperial Porter (http://www.flyingdogales.com/Beer-Specialty-Gonzo.aspx) on tap. (Makes you wanna do really crazy stuff...)
(http://www.flyingdogales.com/images/beer-gonzo-bottle.gif)
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I liked that "Of to Many Words" screen name, but I can't think of any one HERE that would fit ;D
Let's see, it would have to be somebody with nearly 12,000 posts............................... ;D
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Oh I don't know, 2500 should get you in the running ;D
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Let's see, it would have to be somebody with nearly 12,000 posts............................... ;D
Well, then that would be TomOTMP.
DonOTMW did post a lot, but many of his posts were essays that went on quite awhile. Quite awhile. I ended up knowing more about what was going on in his life than I did in mine. Shooters.com might well have crashed because Don used up its bandwidth - with words. There were no graphics on that board.
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Some of mine get long, most are of average length. No one has ever blamed me for crashing the site, Yet. ;D
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Some of mine get long, most are of average length. No one has ever blamed me for crashing the site, Yet. ;D
Operative word! ;D
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Some of mine get long, most are of average length. No one has ever blamed me for crashing the site, Yet. ;D
But the day ain't over. ;D
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M'ETTE, The old farts are picking on me !
;D
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M'ETTE, The old farts are picking on me !
;D
Haz, are you gonna let him call you an old fart?!? ;D
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I'll look for that one (like I need encouragement...). I'll be having my last supper at the Stone Brewery on Sunday before heading to Mexico... Looking forward to a nice Imperial Russian Stout, that's become my favorite from them. I think its the best beer brewed in the US and #2 in the world.
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Haz, are you gonna let him call you an old fart?!? ;D
Well....if the shoe fits.... :-[
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I'll look for that one (like I need encouragement...). I'll be having my last supper at the Stone Brewery on Sunday before heading to Mexico... Looking forward to a nice Imperial Russian Stout, that's become my favorite from them. I think its the best beer brewed in the US and #2 in the world.
Good taste Rob!!
http://www.stonebrew.com/irs/
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I'll look for that one (like I need encouragement...). I'll be having my last supper at the Stone Brewery on Sunday before heading to Mexico... Looking forward to a nice Imperial Russian Stout, that's become my favorite from them. I think its the best beer brewed in the US and #2 in the world.
If you do not mind my asking which is #1?
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In the world that is.
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Yuengling (http://www.yuengling.com/) claims it's the oldest - in America. Not bad stuff, either. I like their porter. There are so many microbreweries now that it's probly impossible to narrow it down and still have a functioning liver.
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BUT, if I had a cafe, it would serve Arrogant Bastard Ale (Stone Brewery) and 5 Hour Energy Drinks and would have bouncers.
.....and carry the complete line of THE BEST DEFENSE hair care products..... ;D
If you do not mind my asking which is #1?
I, too, am interested....
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Yuengling is a good call for a "lighter" beer, Kent.
As for my personal #1, it is the Starkbier that they serve at the Paulaner Nocherberg at the Starkbierfest every year. It is only available for a few weeks and is high alcohol, great taste. I've made it to the last 3 events and plan on making it in 2010 also. One of the teams I train turned me on to it in 2007 and it has become a tradition. Although you can get it bottled, or at least a version of it, the real stuff is supposedly only served at the Nocherberg in 1 liter steins. I have been given credit for 5 in one evening, but I have repeatedly insisted that I didn't finish the last one. They also have great bretzels at the Nocherberg.
Here's a pic from our table in 09:
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/vtcrob/2585_1036725480750_1303869778_30137.jpg)
(PS- see how little I care about going off topic outside of D&T and TBD forums ;D)
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ARRGGGEEEE! RP had to give the #1 to the "holy grail" of brews. Good call and now I am humbled.
I also will add an AttaBoy for the credit for 5 in one evening
just wonder which one of the drinking companions put you to bed after......... probably sitting to your right. ;)
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More likely the three on his left, 2 to carry and 1 to open doors ;D
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Actually, that pic was this year... the "Debacle of 5" was in '07.. two of the three guys on the right were there... but I did not need to get carried home.
-RJP
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What you describe sounds like what the Germans call "doppelbock," or doublebock, which, as they explained it, was originally the thicker stuff at the bottom of the barrel, which the monks who brewed it drank during lent to give them the nourishment they needed while fasting.
Thus, I should think, the 5 brewskis you downed in '07 were the equivalent of two or three medium rare sirloin steaks.
The doppelbock we drank in the aught mid-60s in Kassel also had the extra alcoholic content, which you didn't notice so much because of the thick body of the beer. More than once I failed to remember how many I drank or how I got back to post when we were finished celebrating another day. My head tried to remind me the next morning, tho, without any of the joy the beer had provided earlier.
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Yes, Kent, they are doppels and they are HEAVY. But the one served at the 'fest is less carbonated and a little sweeter than any that I have ever had out of bottle.
-RJP
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Ya know, I was going to post a snarky comment post about 5 pages on a thread entitled "Locked threads".
But then I see the topic veered waaaaay off course onto one of our favorite subjects - alcohol - so, nevermind . . . 8)
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Trying to get my GF to expand her beer horizons a bit. She has never had beer with flavor. Just the flavored water. Bud, Coors, etc. So when I introduced her to Fat Tire the response was, well, interesting. Probably a little too strong for her first. But I have got her starting to like some of the lighter beers, Easy Street Wheat being one of my favorites in that category.
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What you describe sounds like what the Germans call "doppelbock," or doublebock, which, as they explained it, was originally the thicker stuff at the bottom of the barrel, which the monks who brewed it drank during lent to give them the nourishment they needed while fasting.
Thus, I should think, the 5 brewskis you downed in '07 were the equivalent of two or three medium rare sirloin steaks.
The doppelbock we drank in the aught mid-60s in Kassel also had the extra alcoholic content, which you didn't notice so much because of the thick body of the beer. More than once I failed to remember how many I drank or how I got back to post when we were finished celebrating another day. My head tried to remind me the next morning, tho, without any of the joy the beer had provided earlier.
Since this is now way off topic and is now a beer thread, and as a homebrewer, I know my beer styles. A Doppelbock is an official recognized beer style and not, “the thicker stuff at the bottom of the barrel, which the monks who brewed it drank during lent to give them the nourishment they needed while fasting.”
Below is the story of the Paulaner monks Doppelbock. The story gives some background on how the “urban legend” that Doppelbock is the leavinga at the bottom of the barrel. Enjoy the story…
Literally, Doppelbock means double Bock(bier). It is one of Germany's "biggest" beers, typically with an alcohol content by volume of around 7%, but some Doppelbocks go up to 13% in strength. Doppelbock emerged in the late eighteenth century as a powerful lager variant of the old monastic strong beer, the monks' "liquid bread," which they traditionally brewed for the Lenten season.
Because the monks believed that liquids not only cleansed the body but also the soul, they would make plenty of liquid instead of solid bread from their grain, and then drink it in copious quantities...the more, the holier. Because the monks were society's role models in those religious times...as did the monks so did the common folk.
The first Lenten strong beer was brewed by Paulaner monks at Cloister Neudeck ob der Au in Munich. The Paulaners had arrived in Munich from Italy in 1627. They began brewing beer for their own consumption shortly thereafter—exactly when is not clear. Depending on which documents one can trust, the year was 1630, 1651 or 1670. The Paulaners felt, however, that such a strong brew with such delightful qualities might be just a bit too much of an indulgence for Lent. So they decided to ask the Holy Father in Rome for a special dispensation so that they could continue to brew it with a clear conscience.
The Paulaners dispatched a cask of Lenten beer to Rome for the pope to try and to pass judgment. During its transport across the Alps and along the burning sun of Italy, unfortunately—or fortunately—the cask tossed and turned, and heated for several weeks—a classic condition for causing beer to turn sour and undrinkable. So when the Holy Father tasted the much-praised stuff from Munich, he found it (appropriately) disgusting. His decision: Because the brew was so vile, it was probably beneficial for the souls of the Munich monks to make and drink as much of it as they could. Therefore, he willingly gave the brewing of this new, allegedly rotten, beer style his blessing. Little did he know...!
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WatchMan,
Thanks for the clarifiying before I did. Facts are stubborn things.
Rum is the nasty leftovers from the bottom of the barrel.
"Molasses is a sticky syrup that still contains a significant amount of sugar. Sugar mill operators soon noticed that when it was mixed with water and left out in the sun it would ferment. By the 1650s this former waste product was being distilled into a spirit. In the English colonies it was called Kill Devil (from its tendency to cause a nasty hangover or its perceived medicinal power, take your choice) or rumbullion (origins uncertain), which was shortened over the years to our modern word Rum. The French render this word as rhum, while the Spanish call it ron."
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Watchman - I like your version better than the one the Germans told us (when they were prolly as lubricated as were we at the time). Timothy - Never knew that about rum.
One thing about alcohol that somebody told me once, prolly in the interest of encouraging teetotallery, was that alcohol is in fact yeast feces. I suppose this might explain the expression sh*tfaced, which I do try to avoid now that I'm a maturer citizen, but telling me this by no means accomplished its intended purpose.
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You are correct Clark.
Alcohol is a byproduct of the yeasties little flatulent steampiles!
Yummy!
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Beer was also a byproduct of producing bread!
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Beer was also a byproduct of producing bread!
Tim, our designated brewmaster ;D
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When I was in Vo Tech my Dorm RA told me that, so to needle him If I was going out drinking I'd tell him I was going to get some "Bug Juice" ;D
To get back on Topic, wasn't there some one who objected to "Thread drift" in their threads ?
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Must be the beer, just the thinking about it...