The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Rastus on November 08, 2009, 08:21:23 AM
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The heroine of the Fort Hood shootings was reported to have Active Shooter training. Of the few tactics I know for active shooters I think the training is valueable and spoke with my training center yesterday to schedule active shooter defense training for my family.
Not like law enforcement where you are empowered to seek and stop a threat, but civilian in nature where you can act only to defend life and dependent life. Also to include training for dependents so they can act independently and allow the person responsible for their safety to react with a minimum of concern that the dependents are easy targets. It's 21 for concealed carry here in Oklahoma so my nearly grown boys that have a better head on their shoulders than most the doting public can't carry to defend themselves but should know what to do to exacerbate the situation.
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I think I would make sure your sons are well trained in marksmanship, gunhandling, mindset and basic tactics.
Hopefully they will never have to fight their way out of a building much less fight their way in.
IMHO Too much of the high speed stuff without a very solid base is a propblem in my mind.
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I'm not sure Rastus. As you say we should not be 'charging to the sound of guns'. I think (maybe) that active shooter training for us and families should be more about cover, concealment and escape. Also all should follow the orders of the family / group member with the gun (yes, I am assuming that said person is level headed).
JMHO
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I agree with both of you. Focus on avoidance after-the-fact first...then how to safely escape. Lastly what to do if avoidance and escape fail.
Excluding what I had shown them, the entire family has been though professional handling and marksmanship.
Over the decades the society has decayed to the point where I believe it is prudent to be prepared for an active shooter. I don't want to rely on hopeful statistical chances or effective law enforcement being there for me when it happens. The training the standard officer gets in gun handling and marksmanship...well, it sucks because qualifying is mostly square range stuff...not all I know so don't flame me, but the garden variety officer does not have 1/4 the training my family has received or what you and your family can have....and that's based upon college buddies and shooter friends who are LE across 5 or so states in various jurisdictions (Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma and Arkansas).
My Class III dealer buys a lot of PD weapons for resale....most of them are hardly shot and except for some holster wear look brand new.
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I think I would make sure your sons are well trained in marksmanship, gunhandling, mindset and basic tactics.
Hopefully they will never have to fight their way out of a building much less fight their way in.
IMHO Too much of the high speed stuff without a very solid base is a propblem in my mind.
Ratcatcher, If you are referring strictly to Police oriented training I would agree that it would be no more than recreation for a NON LEO to take such training. However instruction on the potential problems of getting out of Dodge tailored for ordinary citizens would be of great help.
More along the lines of "DON'T panic" than "going to the sound of the guns".
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Ratcatcher, If you are referring strictly to Police oriented training I would agree that it would be no more than recreation for a NON LEO to take such training. However instruction on the potential problems of getting out of Dodge tailored for ordinary citizens would be of great help.
More along the lines of "DON'T panic" than "going to the sound of the guns".
Exactly. Which is why, in my first post at least, I said active shooter defense training. I should have stated defense in the poll...I'll try to change it. You have the opportunity to change your vote if desired.
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Tom & Ratus,
Active shooter response is an agressive "to the guns" tactic. It's not and can not be defensive in nature.
I agree with you on the get out of Dodge training. The BDS segment on the non shooter holding on to the belt and giving 360 coverage to the family team was that kind of tactic that I think is real world and worth practicing
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In today's world where nut jobs can turn up literally any where it would be a reasonable consideration for even NON gun people to have some idea what to do rather than just running in circles screaming. The Ft. Hood incident was unusual in that armed LE's actually arrived while it was still in progress. Generally that is not the case, I recall reading about one of the Mall shootings, local police arrived in 6 minutes, which is good response time in a city, but the whole incident took only 4 minutes, the shooter had done what he intended and then killed himself before trained personnel ever arrived.
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First of all I believe quality training is a positive thing.
Also, one needs to be aware of the mental aspects and split-second decision making skills associated with being involved in a situation like Ft. Hood or a mall shooting.
*For example, are you by yourself in a public place when a shooter goes on a rampage or do you have family members to protect?
*Finding cover and concealment, whether alone or with family, and for what (if any) reasons do you break concealment?
*I do not advocate charging in like ol' John Wayne, but if the assailant is heading your way with guns blazing, do you wait and see, or strike to try and end the attack?
*If LEO's are on the scene and engaged, but the fight overlaps into your safe zone of concealment, do you engage and risk being mistaken by LEO's as a hostile target?
As with any situation, there are many variables to be considered.
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Way WAY back, like nearly 20 years ago, we had what COULD have been a virginia tech situation when I was in college (University of Nebraska). A student didn't like the grade or critique he received on a psych paper and was going to prove his point. He walked into class with his new surplus rifle and was going to take out the prof and as many of the "teacher's pets" as he could. Before he could get a shot off, he was tackled by a couple kids from the front row. All it takes is the ONE, the warrior, to change the course of the battle. I often wonder what the world would be like if we would have had a few more warriors on those planes on 9/11.
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The active shooter training can be a good branch into all aspects of training of force on force and life in general. This will most likely be the bridge to provide the urge to seek more, and better for your individual needs/wants training. In all likelihood needed is more like wanted training. So is it VALUEABLE??
Yes, but. It would break the ice more as a promoter for more individualized training where some would be intimidated without.
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its a better way to spend tax money than on OBAMA phones to.
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For the civilian carrier, active shooter training should only consist of ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,RUN, help those less able and get out of dodge.
Fire only if fired upon.
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My preface was defensive to get away but to protect if necessary. I guess I will always respectfully disagree and say that civilians who are up to it should get training to stop an active shooter. And as prefaced that as a civilian, at least in my state, I have no rights under the law to defend those who are not my legal dependents or employees and will face prosecution if I choose to run afoul of the law instead of watching innocents be slaughtered waiting on someone authorized to show up.
Bottom line, I have absolutely no desire to be shot in the back with my family as we run away waiting for law enforcement to show up on a developing scene...that is not a slight on law enforcement...just a fact that they can't be everywhere all the time. I want the best chance I can get to defend my family so they can get away unharmed; that's one of the reasons I carry concealed. What happens to me is secondary other than the absolute primary task that if required I must be successful to protect dependents in my care by whatever means are necessary.
I disagree that running is the right thing for all citizens to do in every conceivable encounter.
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Another thing to think of is that in that sort of panic situation exits will get jammed, you could very easily find yourself in a situation where you have a panicked mob between you and the exit and the armed BG approaching.
In that case your choices are , be a victim or return fire and take your chances with the responding cops.
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Another thing to think of is that in that sort of panic situation exits will get jammed, you could very easily find yourself in a situation where you have a panicked mob between you and the exit and the armed BG approaching.
In that case your choices are , be a victim or return fire and take your chances with the responding cops.
Exactly. A mob can kill by sheer force "just as dead" as you would be with a 7.62 x 39 perforating you in inappropriate places.
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I'm sure it has some value, but your training time/ money would be better off spent else where.
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I'm sure it has some value, but your training time/ money would be better off spent else where.
This is probably true but the force on force training would help individuals to see their own flaws/week points and seek more specific training to fill the skill toolbox.
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I'm sure it has some value, but your training time/ money would be better off spent else where.
I am going to say that there is little difference between a civilian active shooter response and the "stop and rob" scenerio in season one of TBD. I am not saying that an average civilian should try to enter and clear, but find cover/concealment without drawing attention and engage when an opening presents itself or all other options are gone.
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I am going to say that there is little difference between a civilian active shooter response and the "stop and rob" scenerio
The primary difference in my opinion is going to be the post shooting actions. More important for the "stop n rob" to be complainant and point out evidence and witnesses.
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I'm not sure active shooter defense training is all that valuable to us, but if one of us is present and armed, I feel we have a duty to address the shooter if possible, this is usually the shooter shooting fish in a barrel, until someone, maybe one of us, gives resistance, but we also have to be cognizant of the officers coming to the scene. They don't know who the BG is, so even if we do the BG in, we don't want to be confused with the BG. All appropriate protocols should be observed to allow the new on the scene LE's, to know who is who. Definitely don't have a firearm in your hand when they arrive.
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We spend a lot of time on Season 2 of TBD on active shooter scenarios. The best cases focus on GETTING YOU AND YOURS OUT OF HARM'S WAY! I realize this is a big time controversial issue in the culture, and the universe of possible solutions shifts crazily depending on which direction you look at it. If I am with family or friends, my responsibility is TO THEM — getting them out and safe — not to the larger crowd of people who when given the same choices I had made the decision to be sheep.
If I am alone, then maybe it's a different situation. From a personal standpoint, I am an excellent shot, but my eyesight is flawed...that changes my personal situation should I have the huge misfortune of being trapped in an active shooter situation.
LEO training — end the situation as quickly and as decisively as possible — may not be applicable for civilian situations. I think for one of us in such a situation, cover/concealment is critical...but having said that, there is no one "situation" that we can model. In my own mind, there's a big difference between a yard full of schoolkids and an office building full of people who could have chosen to be armed but opted to go on with their eyes closed.
One of the things I say next season is that an active shooter situation is the worst case, short of alien baby elephants parachuting in with assault rifles (tip of the hat to Jerry Pournelle on that). There is no "If A; then B" here...it is chaos, pure and simple. If there are any easy answers, I can't see them...
Michael B
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There is no "If A; then B" here...it is chaos, pure and simple. If there are any easy answers, I can't see them...
Then training for it is moot and waste of time, along with any preparedness of any kind, but doing a show is not.
Please Mr. Bane put me in my place if i miss understood you I am not following exactly .
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Sigh...I am not and have never been "Mr. Bane." At least, I don't think I am...
I didn't say that at all. What I said is that LEO training for active shooter scenarios isn't necessarily applicable to civilians. We have different missions.
Training is never moot, but it can be wrong-headed. "Active shooter" covers a staggering range of possibilities, the most complex shooting situations possible. There isn't a 3-day class that prepares your or I for being trapped in such a situation...there can't be, because too many factors, too many variables, are acting on the system.
One trains by as much as possible breaking the complex system down and focusing on the elements — awareness and avoidance (I don;t spend a lot of time hanging around malls or large crowded places, and when I do my necessity I know where my OUT is); understanding the relationship(s) between movement and target; concealment, cover and bullet backstops; complex shots with lots of "no-shoots." And none of this stuff is easy.
Hope this clarifies my thoughts a bit...
mb
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OOOOOOOh. Why didn't ya say so.
Upon rereading the first post I should of seen where you were coming from. I thank you for the clarification and I will do my best to read twice and respond once from now on.
Also about the "Mr. Bane" thing sorry I will kick my on arse and use MB from this post hence.
Seriously my apologies. :-[
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MB's (the alleged "Mr. Bane") comments reminded me of the old Zen adage - Train for nothing so you are prepared for anything.
It does not mean literally never train (or train for nothing), it means keep your training fluid and not focused on a single threat. If you do, you will miss the threats - and attacks - that come from areas you have not trained for. Through fluid training, you are better prepared to deal with any threat ("anything").
Bruce Lee as one example was a wonderful practitioner of this philosophy. From what I have seen, some of the training methods at Gunsite et al. also try to approach this mindset.
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I ask this question, because I don't have the experience nor have I done research to know.
What are the elements common to being in an Active Shooter situation where someone is bent on mass killing compared to being in a robbery, home invasion, etc? Now, what elements are specific to an Active Shooter based on mass carnage that don't generally exist in other situations? That is what I would want to train defensively for....hit the relevent, meaningful points of like and dislike actions....if they do in fact exist.
I would think there are elements common to the Active Shooter that are common to other events....is the druggie who pulled a 38 on me on the beach (I'll never know how he got those 2" diameter bullets in that cylinder) when I was 15 any more or less dangerous to me than someone wanting to kill a lot of people and me being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Is there something different about the events that would be key in helping survive?
My perception is that there is something helpful here. I have been known to be wrong.
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One thing that is common to most mass shooting incidents is they happen in "Gun Free Zones".
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I ask this question, because I don't have the experience nor have I done research to know.
What are the elements common to being in an Active Shooter situation where someone is bent on mass killing compared to being in a robbery, home invasion, etc? Now, what elements are specific to an Active Shooter based on mass carnage that don't generally exist in other situations? That is what I would want to train defensively for....hit the relevent, meaningful points of like and dislike actions....if they do in fact exist.
I would think there are elements common to the Active Shooter that are common to other events....is the druggie who pulled a 38 on me on the beach (I'll never know how he got those 2" diameter bullets in that cylinder) when I was 15 any more or less dangerous to me than someone wanting to kill a lot of people and me being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Is there something different about the events that would be key in helping survive?
My perception is that there is something helpful here. I have been known to be wrong.
I would certainly think that one commonality would obviously be the threat itself and the desire to remove ones self from the danger of the threat. Therein lies the rub because each threat is different.
You take a case of home invasion where an armed thug breaches your home and threatens you by wielding an 870 pump. In that situation, the single point of focus of the threat is on you (and loved ones if present) directly.
You take the same thug and plop him down in the local mall where he has suddenly and violently taken exception to Ed's Taco Emporium for screwing up his order and he decides to come back and vent his frustrations, with the same 870 pump, on the center food court at the mall. If you are in the mall, technically the treat is the same as at home, but the point of focus is broader.
The threat is the same but the variables are different.
*In the home, you are kind of automatically the direct focus of the assault.
*In the mall, you may or may not be in the direct focus of the assault, largely dependent on your location to the threat, and that is what would dictate your course of action from that point forward.
*In the home, you probably would be cornered with no option but to fight.
*In the mall, you might have multiple options dependent on the actions and movements of the shooter.
The only thing that is certain, is that nothing is certain.
Like MB said, there ain't no easy answers.........
But at least maybe a lot of folks are thinkin'.
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One thing that is common to most mass shooting incidents is they happen in "Gun Free Zones".
So try to avoid gun-free zones just like you should avoid high crime areas.
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One thing that is common to most mass shooting incidents is they happen in places the shooter spent lots of time.
fixed
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I ask this question, because I don't have the experience nor have I done research to know.
What are the elements common to being in an Active Shooter situation where someone is bent on mass killing compared to being in a robbery, home invasion, etc? Now, what elements are specific to an Active Shooter based on mass carnage that don't generally exist in other situations? That is what I would want to train defensively for....hit the relevent, meaningful points of like and dislike actions....if they do in fact exist.
I would think there are elements common to the Active Shooter that are common to other events....is the druggie who pulled a 38 on me on the beach (I'll never know how he got those 2" diameter bullets in that cylinder) when I was 15 any more or less dangerous to me than someone wanting to kill a lot of people and me being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Is there something different about the events that would be key in helping survive?
My perception is that there is something helpful here. I have been known to be wrong.
I think there is a basic difference in mindset between the criminal and the mass shooter mind. I have heard Skip Gochenor give this lecture a couple times and it is worth reading.
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15597&p=177163&hilit=Skip+Gochenour
The mope robbing you on the beach want to get away. The mass shooter doesn't care.
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I voted "yes" for everyone... with the caveat that the training for LE/Security personnel heading towards the sound of gunshots (our D.A.R.T. program) needs to be significantly different than that for the armed person who happens to get caught in a situation (CCW Tcactics or Defensive Firearms Use in Public).
-RJP
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I voted "yes" for everyone... with the caveat that the training for LE/Security personnel heading towards the sound of gunshots (our D.A.R.T. program) needs to be significantly different than that for the armed person who happens to get caught in a situation (CCW Tcactics or Defensive Firearms Use in Public).
-RJP
I think this is exactly right. For civies, what awareness clues or techniques would tell which way is the right way to go to get away? If you are standing next to an exit in the mall, that's easy...maybe. If you are in the middle of a mall or in a building like in India then things get more testy.
At any rate, I think from a business and personal interest standpoint a class in Defensive Active Shooter that draws elements together (repackaged from other courses) could be a helpful course.
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Exactly. A mob can kill by sheer force "just as dead" as you would be with a 7.62 x 39 perforating you in inappropriate places.
Personally, I have NO appropriate places for 7.62 x 39 perforation.
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One thing that is common to most mass shooting incidents is they happen in "Gun Free Zones".
Tom, you HAD to know that TAB would be all over you for that one. ;D
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Tom, you HAD to know that TAB would be all over you for that one. ;D
Yes, but anyone who has been here a while knows where TABs head usually is. ;D
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Yes, but anyone who has been here a while knows where TABs head usually is. ;D
I believe the term you're looking for is "Operating HUA". ;D
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Personally, I have NO appropriate places for 7.62 x 39 perforation.
Finally, someone who appreciates fine humor...... :)