The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: bushpilot267 on November 10, 2009, 02:02:21 PM
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Finally got the goods on the coming GLOCK which will be revealed at the SHOT SHOW.
Adjustable backstrap, Ambi Mag Release, recoil reduction spring within a spring, MAYBE ambi slide release, MAYBE better sights, RTF finish, finger grooves, more & larger slide cuts.
Actually, S&W M&P has most of this, if not all, RIGHT NOW.
What has made it around to police circles may or MAY NOT be the finished product since GLOCK is keen to keep market share of cops since it has been slipping. Took many suggestions. Some may make it to production.
We shall see very soon.
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we have been discussing this already
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9410.0
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http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9410.0
It was bantered about here recently at the above thread. But I think its a good thing, as technology improves and consumer feedback finally make it back to the manufacturer, we (the consumer) end up with better and better stuff.
I have an M+P full size .40, and being left handed, all the ambi features were perfect.
Than over the summer I went to the dark side and had a deal on a very slightly used Glock 21, .45ACP. It is a railroad tie with a trigger, I have adjusted so many other aspects of shooting left handed that the mag release, and drop, are no big deal.
Moreover, I know it can be used and abused and will still work.
Looking forward to seeing it.
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Sorry for bringing up the same subject as was posted before.
Being lefty I appreciate the M&P for its ease of use and other features.
GLOCK is a fine weapon. I hope they have executed the final version well. Many police agencies are moving away from them and that, alone, is enough to bring change.
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Finally got the goods on the coming GLOCK which will be revealed at the SHOT SHOW.
Adjustable backstrap, Ambi Mag Release, recoil reduction spring within a spring, MAYBE ambi slide release, MAYBE better sights, RTF finish, finger grooves, more & larger slide cuts.
Actually, S&W M&P has most of this, if not all, RIGHT NOW.
Your goods are somewhat off the mark.
Grip arch has a small (think SF size) fixed arch. So the default is always an arch. Standard size is one overlay and the large is another. You are wrong on the "Ambi", as the magazine release will be reversible, along with a new magazine to accomodate same. Negative on the slide stop being ambidextrous. RTF is not a finish, it is a texture treatment of the frame. And the new gun will have a new treatment, not the currently available RTF. Think pyramid shapes with the point removed. See also, "dragons teeth." Slide cuts are back to the original style, with no change in size. The new recoil spring is exclusive to the new model, and is not intended to retrofit.
I've held it and played with all the features.
And, the Glock is still a trigger cocking design, unlike the single action M&P. The M&P sales numbers are still a fraction of that from Glock. It would be premature to declare any sort of supremacy on the part of S&W.
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Your goods are somewhat off the mark.
Grip arch has a small (think SF size) fixed arch. So the default is always an arch. Standard size is one overlay and the large is another. You are wrong on the "Ambi", as the magazine release will be reversible, along with a new magazine to accomodate same. Negative on the slide stop being ambidextrous. RTF is not a finish, it is a texture treatment of the frame. And the new gun will have a new treatment, not the currently available RTF. Think pyramid shapes with the point removed. See also, "dragons teeth." Slide cuts are back to the original style, with no change in size. The new recoil spring is exclusive to the new model, and is not intended to retrofit.
I've held it and played with all the features.
And, the Glock is still a trigger cocking design, unlike the single action M&P. The M&P sales numbers are still a fraction of that from Glock. It would be premature to declare any sort of supremacy on the part of S&W.
(http://netwrok.us/stuff/dont-worry-sir-im-from-the-internet.jpg)
::)
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Regardless of bells and whistles, competition leads to better products. The original S&W Sigma was fair at best, Bergeron who came to S&W from Colt was given Carte Blanche to design a completely new pistol for S&W. The M+P was the result.
See American Hangunner Jan/Feb 2010, pg 28. Massad Ayoob goes through the reasoning why more LEO agencies national and international, are getting M+P's.
Glock, is trying to keep up. They always made a great pistol, now its down to features and creature comforts, that WE the buyers want. Thankfully, I have large hands, because my G21 grip is uber big.. My M+P has 3 options for the back strap. It's just the nature of the beast.
Just like the Brand New Mustang vs. Brand New Camaro debate, they are both nice cars, just one of the great aspects of capitalism and marketing.
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Does this mean that Glock has to give all that royalty money that it got for the Sigma back?.... ;D
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I am pissed my friends, all gun writers or weapons experts or armors from large police departments, would go to GLOCK in GA and play all day with the proto type pistol and then LIE to me about it's features. Outrageous.
I apologize to anyone here who read my post and believed a word of it. Sorry guys. I am filled with the knowledge I am WRONG. My goods were "WRONG".
The coming GLOCK will NOT have a mag release which can be ambi, not have different slide cuts, no selectable grip arch, no RTF finsih on the grip, no spring within a spring recoil device and no improvment on the slde release. Those Lying bastards!
I am so glad to hear S&W is not taking the police market share away from GLOCK. Ayoob is simply wrong, perhaps lied to by my alleged friends too.
GLOCKS are fine pistols and I cannot wait to see what they really deliver.
That will sure teach me a lesson!
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I apologize.....
No need to apologize. Some of your sources were wrong or inaccurate in the descriptions that they provided to you.
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No need to apologize. Some of your sources were wrong or inaccurate in the descriptions that they provided to you.
Kilroy,
Is it possible you have held and played with one of several prototypes they produced?
I've seen companies go through several different iterations of a new product design before releasing the final one to the public. Was the one you saw the final version they are going to release at SHOT?
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Kilroy,
Is it possible you have held and played with one of several prototypes they produced?
Dont feed the troll.
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Dont feed the troll.
Me thinks somethings afoot,.....
::)
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Me thinks somethings afoot,.....
::)
Yeah, This topic (And the other thread on the same topic) seams to be the only reason he returns to this site..... ::) Indeed
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He's not a troll, he's got 37 posts. He only seems to be interested in Glock subjects.
Some of the rest of you have similar interests. ;D
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Some of the rest of you have similar interests. ;D
But we dont waltz around here acting like internet commandos and perpetrating like we have personal sit downs with Gaston or like we have access to super secret insider information from the Glock financials. Look, I am not calling the guy a liar, but everything he has stated has been on other internet forums for a very long time now (GlockTalk has like a 13 page thread on this subject) not to mention, each time I ask him to go into a little more detail and produce something that can be substantiated all we get are crickets. He has also been bordering on insulting in that other Glock thread.
Exit Question: Does anyone else find it hilarious that I have produced more credible insight into the details of this big reveal then Kilroy has?
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9410.0
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Exit Question: Does anyone else find it hilarious that I have produced more credible insight into the details of this big reveal then Kilroy has?
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9410.0
I find your insight very penetrating, so much so much so that I am almost made to feel uncomfortable........ ;) ;D
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I find your insight very penetrating, so much so much so that I am almost made to feel uncomfortable........ ;) ;D
"Turn your head and cough"
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"Turn you head and cough"
:o All creditability has been lost, LOST I SAY! ;D
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I know....how about we wait until we see an actual picture of one? Meanwhile I will keep enjoying my "old" Glocks.
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But we dont waltz around here acting like internet commandos and perpetrating like we have personal sit downs with Gaston........
Wrong on both. I've held the final production version of the new Glock. I get to see most of the new models before they get public exposure. Much as I'd like to be here more often, I have a job away from the internet which allows me quite a bit of exposure to the gun industry. And no, I don't work for any company. And definitely NOT a gun writer.
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Kilroy,
Michael Bane's info about the latest Glock in last week's podcast contradicts what you wrote in a prior post. One of you do not know what you're talking about when it comes to this subject......And I have confidence in Michael Bane....
(http://netwrok.us/stuff/dont-worry-sir-im-from-the-internet.jpg)
;)
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::) The fact that some company made BDU's and gear to FIT that!!! :o
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(http://netwrok.us/stuff/dont-worry-sir-im-from-the-internet.jpg)
Michelinman goes to war ;D
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Now, if they'd just get rid of the D..N finger grooves! I know, a lot of folks like them even thou they say they don't fit their hands but better grip texturing (which they are coming out with) would be just as good and maybe a stickier poly. compound.
JMNSHO
Richard
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Update: From the Firearm Blog
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/05/more-confirmation-on-gen-4-glock-features/
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/glock_rtf-tfb-tm.jpg)
It will have adjustable back straps to accommodate different hand sizes.
It will have a different frame texture, which I have heard from others is somewhere between the standard Glock frame and the Glock Rough Textured Frame.
I asked about the rumor I had heard that it would have a different recoil spring (rumor was it would be a double spring to reduce recoil). And I was told that it would have some different internal parts.
I have also heard from a trustworthy source (I cannot reveal the source) that the Gen-4 G17 and G22 models will be initially offered, with the 19 and 23 compact models following shortly after. I also heard that Glock is planning on introducing a model chambered in .22 Long Rifle, although this is not expected for a while yet.
More here:
http://www.saysuncle.com/2009/12/03/fourth-generation-glock-stuff
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Personally, I do not like the RFT finish. I would rather have the same grip as a Generation 3 or 1. The finger grooves are offset for a person with smaller hands. The RFT is too rough and I have dealt with numerous officers who like the new Glock, but the destruction of uniforms and gear from the grip is a constant bitch. I am looking for lower frames to replace my Glock 22 RFT. If you are shooting less than 100 rounds at the range, it is perfect. Go over that, you will experience pain. Just my two bits.
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My only beef with the Gen three Glock is the finger grooves. they don't fit my hand. Its a minor bitch, but I preffered the gen 1 and gen 2 weapons. It seems dumb to build in an "it fits you or it doesn't" feature.
FQ13
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My only beef with the Gen three Glock is the finger grooves. they don't fit my hand. Its a minor bitch, but I preffered the gen 1 and gen 2 weapons. It seems dumb to build in an "it fits you or it doesn't" feature.
FQ13
+1 , I am with you on the groves. They hit me in the pads of my fingers. They do not hinder the performance, just annoying. There is no way I am giving up my 3gens. G35 but the new G21 and G20 SF's seem to be a better fit. We can not have them in MA so I can not get one for range time for test and evaluation to be sure.
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Another +1 on the finger grooves. The G21 grip is big enough without the grooves. It's not really a hindrance to using it, just a personal nit pick as I would be fine without it.
The new gun shop that opened here only offers a $200 credit for a traded in pistol. Even a still slightly used G21. So forget em', I was considering trading it for a new one, but am not going to take a beating on the trade.
Mine is fine, it's a big railroad tie, but I rely on its function, and count on it's performance. It's kinda weird, holding it feels too big, shooting it feels just right....
Hmmmmmm.... ;)
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Finger groves can be ground away.
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Update: From the Firearm Blog
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/05/more-confirmation-on-gen-4-glock-features/
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/glock_rtf-tfb-tm.jpg)
The photo shows an RTF frame with standard magazine release. The pattern is similar to the "new" frame, but the texture is not the same. The new texture will look like pyramids with the top half gone. Think of anti-tank dragon's teeth. The covered area will be the same, between the finger swells, the side panels and on the rear arch/add on arch panels.
Glock will lead with the most popular gun, the G22, and with the G17. Next most popular are the 23/19 models. The process will slow a bit after that as market trends determine the speed at which the changeover takes place. When you are in a constant state of back-order, those decisions are carefully thought out.
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The photo shows an RTF frame with standard magazine release. The pattern is similar to the "new" frame, but the texture is not the same. The new texture will look like pyramids with the top half gone. Think of anti-tank dragon's teeth. The covered area will be the same, between the finger swells, the side panels and on the rear arch/add on arch panels.
Glock will lead with the most popular gun, the G22, and with the G17. Next most popular are the 23/19 models. The process will slow a bit after that as market trends determine the speed at which the changeover takes place. When you are in a constant state of back-order, those decisions are carefully thought out.
Gee, I have only read that on about 20 other websites........ This guy bores me
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Gee, I have only read that on about 20 other websites........ This guy bores me
Merely correcting your posting. You must get that a lot.
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From January 19 - 22, 2010, at booth 14049 in Las Vegas, all should be known and we'll know for sure who the BS artists are on this subject.
We hope to have our T&E finished by then. Uneventful and unremarkable thus far.
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Merely correcting your posting. You must get that a lot.
I was showing the post that was over at The Firearm Blog....... Go back to your Dojo, Ninja-boy.
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You should know by now Glock people can not take critic's of there totally reliable and perfect pistol's that quite simply cannot fail like other pistols can!
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Uneventful and unremarkable thus far.
Kinda how I feel about the entire Glock line....
;D
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UPDATE: the Firearm Blog confirms that the Glock 17 and 22 will be the first Gen 4's to market
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/18/confirmed-glock-17-and-22-will-be-first-gen-4/
This is now doubly confirmed. RSR Group, a firearm distributor, has listed the Glock 17 and 22 GEN4 on their website.
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/glock_gen_4-tfb.png)
http://www.rsrgroup.com/
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UPDATE: Pic released
http://www.saysuncle.com/2009/12/17/fourth-generation-glock-picture/#comments
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_CSUgrycy7jY/SyqFdwMgrOI/AAAAAAAABLg/TmdCVqHy3qU/s400/fourthgenglock.jpg)
Hat tip: The Firearm Blog
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Looks like the consumer wins. Toned down the finger grooves, gave it an adjustable backstrap, narrowed the overall "girth" of the grip, and changed the stippling of the grip itself.
I'll take a G22 anytime.
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UPDATE: Pricing released
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/21/glock-gen-4-pricing-dealer-leo-and-msrp/
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/glock-tfb.jpg)
Looks like there will be a premium with these MSRPs Yikes! $700+
*There are other pics at the link. The LEO pricing sheet states that they will be shipping with three mags
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Hey Eric,
I talked to a friend of mine at the local gun shop today who has fired a Gen 4 G22 and he confirms what you have posted. I asked about the change in the recoil spring and he said that it was there and it made a noticeable difference. He said he liked the texture on the new gun. I asked about old mags working in the new guns and he wasn't sure if they were compatible. However, the new style mags will work in the older generation Glocks.
He's a big HK fan (P30 to be exact). I asked him if he would "lower" himself to buy a Glock when the new generation comes out, and he said "yes" with a sheepish grin. I told him the P30 would not mind that he was fondling that "trailer trash" from Smyrna..... ;)
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UPDATE: Gen 4's in stock
http://www.edspublicsafety.com/
Ed's Public Safety in Stockbridge GA has Gen 4 Model 22's in Stock. Check out the pictures on the Ed's Facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/edspublicsafetycom/147550831588?ref=nf
generation 4 pistols in stock. If you want to be the first one on the
block with the latest glock pistol; We've got you covered.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs153.snc3/18069_213184461588_147550831588_3253677_4139904_n.jpg)
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs153.snc3/18069_213250791588_147550831588_3253803_8153103_n.jpg)
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(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/18069_213783996588_147550831588_3256283_6753327_n-tfb-tm.jpg)
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/g22_gen4-tfb-tm.jpg)
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/18069_213625401588_147550831588_3255417_3613995_n-tfb-tm.jpg)
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/glock_22_gen_4-tfb.jpg)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/25/glock-gen4-unveiled/
Glock will cease sales of the 3rd Generation and RTF models.
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Why is Glock messing w "Perfection"?
Cuzz the local city, county, and state went from Glocks in 9/40/357 to M&Ps. Along w Detroit and too many others for Glock.
Another reason is stuff like:
New Weapon System
Solicitation Number: DJA09S000028
Agency: Department of Justice
Office: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF)
Location: Administrative Programs Division (APD)
https://www.fbo.gov/index?print_preview=1&s=opportunity&mode=form&id=578264fe160f0d57ccfed067b8857d0f&tab=core&tabmode=list&cck=1&au=&ck=
Maybe 500,000 pistols over 10 yrs. Read the specs. Glock is Ok as is, but would do better as will be.
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Thanks MikoO, Q&A section of the link, question 3 states "At 25yds, must have 2" group at Point of Aim, mechanical zeroing method used, with ATF approved ammo."
G22 please.....
::)
Cuzz the local city, county, and state went from Glocks in 9/40/357 to M&Ps. Along w Detroit and too many others for Glock.
Just the evolution of two great pistol platforms. Did I mention here on the last day of the year, that I LOVE my M+P .40?
and my G21 45ACP,.... ;D
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I just got the new Glock annual and I'm glad that the changes were as subtle as they are. All of my Glocks already fit my adaptable hands, but I'm interested to see what the new magazine release is like. I don't need another 22, but the 17 is on the heels of it and my lefty wife could use one of these.
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UPDATE: This guy says he has already bought one ($398.20 - North Florida)
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1169028
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Here's a crazy thought. If they have interchangeable back straps, why not interchangeable front straps? That way you could choose to have finger grooves, or not. Huh? Huh? Genius, right?
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Even the glock fanboys have thier doubts about "perfection". ;)
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Here's a crazy thought. If they have interchangeable back straps, why not interchangeable front straps? That way you could choose to have finger grooves, or not. Huh? Huh? Genius, right?
That is a great idea...... especially since so many are love it or hate it about the Glock finger groves..... some manufacturer is doing it with AR grips.
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I like the idea that glock isnt set in there ways. Change is good and now a great gun is even greater, but did glock really copy the M&P or did everyone else copy them and add there own touches. R&D costs are sometimes staggering, so let someone else do it and then add to it. M&P KAHR XD's hell anything polymer is a bootleg of the Glock.
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I like the idea that glock isnt set in there ways...... ANYMORE. Change is good and now a great gun is even greater, but did glock really copy the M&P or did everyone else copy them and add there own touches. R&D costs are sometimes staggering, so let someone else do it and then add to it. M&P KAHR XD's hell anything polymer is a bootleg of the Glock.
;)
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H&K made a polymer framed pistol before Glock pistols existed. Does that makes Glock a copycat?
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Yes ;D
Colt made steel revolvers before any one else, Does that make S&W a copy cat ? ;D
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Yes ;D
Colt made steel revolvers before any one else, Does that make S&W a copy cat ? ;D
YES, and Dirty Harry approves!!!
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IIRC, the Walther P99 had the adjustable backstrap/grips first?
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UPDATE: Got the chance to fondle one over the weekend.
I saw a .40 caliber one in Charleston SC at ATP Gun shop for $609 -- its important to note that they are a pricey store, and all their other Glocks sell for $550-$600
*The new grip texture is great. Its not too much like the RTF was, but it really adds a great deal of "grippyness" to it.
*The backstraps are pretty slick. Not sure which one they had installed, but it had a much more user friendly grip angle. It is also very well done. If you did not know it was interchangable, then you would not be able to tell. It looks like the frame and backstrap are all one piece.
*The new frame also feels thinner. Not single stack thin, but it is a lot less "Blocky"
*I did not care for the new mag release. It is larger, but it is also flatter and would take some getting used to. Its like you really have to search for it and find it. I could see how it would be a problem if going back and forth between it and other guns.... or earlier model glocks.
I think there is some real value added for consumers with these new models. As long as they sell at a reasonable price point, and there are no issues with the internal changes I think these will do very well.
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I really liked the Glock 22 Generation 4 and the way it felt and broke down. I like the newer recoil spring as it is similar to the one in my Glock 30 .45 ACP. Recoil is more manageable than my last Glock 22 RFT2. I am delighted that they were considerate of the people with medium to larger hands and changed the texture of the grip. The new magazine release is really nice.
I owned a Smith and Wesson M&P. Very well built gun. Just hated when I was wearing it concealed and moving one way or another and the magazine released. Very embarrassing in public to be honest. The M&P fired well and I enjoyed the weight of it and the ability to absorb recoil. Both the Smith and Wesson and Glock are fantastic weapons, but I prefer the Glock... ;) I have owned several Smith and Wesson firearms but have purchased 7 Glocks. Glocks have never failed me at the range or out in the community and I know what to expect from them. As for the "Perfection" label? They are close enough for me to continue to carry them without hesitation. Nothing is perfect!!! But like I said, Glock is darn close.
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I got a chance to handle a Gen 4 G22 today. And I will buy a Gen 4 G17 when it's available. Like others have posted already, Glock improved, no "perfected", the frame! ;)
For my hand size, I'll go without any additional backstraps. And the placement of the mag release was near perfect for me. I only had to modify the grip, just slightly, to get positive contact with the release button.
I saw this on another forum and I have to agree that there is something different about the trigger. It seemed smoother to me, not lighter, just smoother.
The store I was in listed it for $649, but that's the stupid price. I plan to use my GSSF certificate later this year to pick up the new G17. I can see IDPA/USPSA shooters taking this gun to the match. I have handled a G34 and liked the trigger and longer sight radius but the new G17 should give it run till Glock comes out with an updated G34....Overall, I think Glock hit a home run with this one....