The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on November 14, 2009, 02:13:10 AM
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With the source of "Trail Safe", the upcoming survival DVD, and all the individual experiences here, I think I've got the worlds most perfect audience for this question. :)
I heard from several sources now (including MI Militia) about the logic in keeping supplies, ammo, a sidearm, and possibly an FRS radio on your person at all times durring a "crisis situation" of any kind. Makes perfect sense. BUT, a few weeks ago a security guard shot student with a knife at the local high school. In the GIANT crowd in the aftermath of this there were of course dozens of armed, uniformed police, hundreds of parents, and one guy who held the attention of almost every single person in the crowd including me. I actually couldn't take my eye's off the guy wondering who he was, what he was doing there, and mentally cataloging every last piece of his gear. Even to the point that I couldn't stop thinking how easy it would be to disarm him, then use his own weapon against him if for any reason the need arose.
He was wearing a vest similar to this:
(http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/bgprod/VEST-160.jpg)
And again, this vest alone made him the primary focus of nearly everyone within eyeshot of him. How much worse of a thing could I, or you possibly do in a crisis situation!?!? Yes, he had all his equipment quickly available. To EVERYONE! And on everyone's mind! Making in my mind a vest like this the absolute worste thing a civilian could ever do in a "crisis" or "SHTF" situation. The LAST thing I want to do is draw any attention! Especially to my supplies and weaponry.
I've been almost equally distracted by the type of vest I often see persons such as Massad Ayoob, and MB wearing.
(http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/bgprod/TAC-5003.jpg)
Are other people as alerted by such a vest as this with various bumps and bulges in the pockets??? Or is it just me knowing what's likely in such a vest? More importantly, if even THIS type of vest is a bad idea in a "crisis", "SHTF" stituation as I'm thinking it may be? If so, what DO I keep gear in?!?! ???
My thoughts have always been to continue carrying CCW, and keep a small genaric looking backpack such as.
(http://www.oakley.com/a/2e/ce/BAh7CGkKIgwyNjh4Mzg1aQtsKwdaIe9KaQhpAnv9.jpg?class=zoomer-img-main&mpdistrans=alt)
YOUR THOUGHTS? MB?
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That's where being a hick is a good thing. I have a tac vest similar to that one, BUT since I've lost a bunch of weight I can conceal the vest under my duster and blend in
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I ain't MB so you get the discount version. I will say this. It depends on the situation and one simple question. Is it TEOTAWAKI (or the local equivilent), where straight up pragmatism is the way to go? Or is subtelty a tactical advantage? In one case I'll be carrying a G19 on my hip, AR mags over my shoulders and an AR in my hands. Shock and awe, find a softer target. On the other hand, it will be baggy clothes and a duffle bag for the rifle, and no nobody here but us chickens.
FQ13
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I ain't MB so you get the discount version. I will say this. It depends on the situation and one simple question. Is it TEOTAWAKI (or the local equivilent), where straight up pragmatism is the way to go? Or is subtelty a tactical advantage? In one case I'll be carrying a G19 on my hip, AR mags over my shoulders and an AR in my hands. Shock and awe, find a softer target. On the other hand, it will be baggy clothes and a duffle bag for the rifle, and no nobody here but us chickens.
FQ13
yeah, I should have prefaced my response with this
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I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts!
I'm just thinking out loud here, but I'm not sure the type of situation has any bearing at all. :-\ You or I would have no control over it, so we won't be able to pick and choose what we may walk into.
We're still talking about an individual civilian, surrounded by others. The hungrier, more desperate they are the worse it's going to be for the unlucky guy that they think they can get needed items from. Or poses a threat to them.
Even if you and all the others are openly carrying rifles, why give oportunists the idea you have something worth killing you and taking?
Camoflag rarely a disadvantage. A "wolf in sheeps clothing" has a much easier / safer hunt.
The idea of having people around me in "shock and awe" is worrisome in that they are unpredictable. If it doesn't last... Then what? What if even ONE guy is not afraid? Or just plain dumb & agressive enough to "try anything once"?
Hmmm, I just don't know. :-\
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If things are that bad when the vest or Bugout bag is being carried, I would hope that a person's situational awareness is at optimumal level. IF I have to go to the vest I'm not going to be around a gathered crowd. IF we are talking about a total breakdown a backpack is going to look like someone with some resources anyway.
I've looked at the vest as ONLY when I need to grab a bunch of ammo in a hurry. IF I'm bugging out because of civil unrest, I'm headed out of town in a hurry or going to a friends to help them baricade in. I'm not going to don the vest to be a 'mall ninja,' but because a huge amount of ammo may be necessary. In which case NOONE is going to see the vest, hence throwing the duster on over top, which being in North Dakota no one is going to think twice about a guy in a hat and a duster.
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This was a combined crime investigation and crowd control situation (he was probably a unit commander or supervisor). Although his stuff may have been filched, that is unlikely, especially with so many uniformed LEOs around. His vest did what it was intended to do - draw attention, provide a measure of command authority.
The police train for this stuff constantly, I would assume - not knowing the players - they have a good idea of what to do in specific circumstances. OK, there's the odd Barney Fife, but in general, they don't make it to the SRTs. I worry about the ones that do make it oneto the SRT, but that's another thread.
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The idea of having people around me in "shock and awe" is worrisome in that they are unpredictable. If it doesn't last... Then what? What if even ONE guy is not afraid? Or just plain dumb & agressive enough to "try anything once"?
Hmmm, I just don't know. :-\
I do. Pull the trigger. If you aren't prepared to do that, arm yourself with a Bible rather than a rifle. I almost learned that the hard way in your state.I discovered that it were me or them, it was going to be them. I am all in favor of concealed carry. Concealed meaning no one knows I have it, which lessens the odds I'll have to use it This is a good thing.. But if its an SHTF situation and all bets are off, laws and rules are secondary to survival, either carry and be prepared to use it or leave it at home.
FQ13
FQ13
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b346/long762range/HomelessManinFrontofSchool.jpg)
Got my Urban camo and bug out gear prepared.
Nobody will suspect nothing.
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b346/long762range/HomelessManinFrontofSchool.jpg)
Got my Urban camo and bug out gear prepared.
Nobody will suspect nothing.
I'm fine with everything, except the expired license plate. He best get that renewed or he may get harassed ;)
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I've always like Louis Vitton bags myself! ;D
Another thread preparing for Armageddon?
I'm moving north! Most people can't survive in the cold they will all head south. You guys prepare for an invasion, I'm going skiing!
;)
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Bring your sleeping bag Tim, Water is no problem and I've got floor space ;D
Same goes for Texicaliber.
I already wear a vest similar to this every day
(http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/bgprod/TAC-5003.jpg)
It's black and even has loops for shotgun shells ;D It covers my 1911 nicely and the only lumps are from my phone, Butts and the book I usually have sticking out of the big bottom pocket, with all that crap obvious no one realizes that I've got a gun, spare mags, knife, light, and fire making gear all stashed as well
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Heck, even around here, this time of year you'd be taken as a hunter anyway. No one gives you a second look. I wear a field jacket nearly every day, winter, spring and fall. I have everything I need in a few pockets and no one has a clue.
Again, living far enough away from the masses, I have time to grab the bug out at home. The car and truck have the essentials, which is enough to get me somewhere that I can commandeer more supplies or get home. My Louis Vitton doggy carrier doubles as my claymore satchel....ya never know!
;D
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Outside of a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation, I'm a firm believer in the "urban camoflage/When In Rome" concept. The less you stand out as someone armed, the better...
....I really like this concept (borrowed from the Firearm Blog).....
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/case_07-tfb-tm.jpg)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/case_07-tfb-tm.jpg (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/case_07-tfb-tm.jpg)
8)
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(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/case_07-tfb-tm.jpg)
Sweeet! Those cases even have backpack straps on them to. ;)
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My dad has a vest just like that first one, but he uses it only on the gun range. ;D
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I think the first vest shown is fine. IF you are a soldier, surrounded by other soldiers who you KNOW are fighting on your side.... Or if your in a 100% "non-threat" area.
Seeker, You need to see "Once Upon a Time in Mexico". They had an entire arsenal in three such cases. ;D
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/kkkkk.jpg?t=1258226157)
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Outside of a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation, I'm a firm believer in the "urban camoflage/When In Rome" concept. The less you stand out as someone armed, the better...
....I really like this concept (borrowed from the Firearm Blog).....
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/case_07-tfb-tm.jpg)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/case_07-tfb-tm.jpg (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/case_07-tfb-tm.jpg)
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I like that. My dad foam lined a Guitar case to keep his folding stocked Winchester 1300 in. No backpack straps on his though. It Will BTW JUST fit his AK, too. ;D
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I'm going the Mariachi route from Desperado. BM and I are thinking alike on this one. ::)
It's Just a guitar,.....
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/guitar-gun.jpg)
But, in this scenario, low profile, WITH A PLAN. Trust will be a key point, and there is strength in numbers. Finding a rally point with like minded individuals, instead of a bunch of armed gypsies shooting eachother has to be there.
What I'm wearing won't matter as I will be at sea. I gotta pick up Haz though.
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Both of those guys were killed in that movie...
I was just thinking last night....we have roughly 4-500 LEO's in this county that will all be out and about during SHTF time hunting for those of us who look like we're up to no good. I think wearing the first vest would be painting a target on, the second not so much but might invite a pat down, walking around with that AR and Glock will just get you shot on sight (around here...ymmv...) so the best way to go is low profile. Just be able to respond to the threat.
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Can't wait till Pincus sees this thread....
From tactical vests, Louis Vitton doggy bags to guitar case machine guns! Now there's some defensive tactics...
;D
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during my time in the regiment on covert gigs we had tactical vests, similar to the ones shown on the front page, but slimmer and to be worn under clothes.
the idea was to keep your 9, radio etc in that, which is like a full chest belly band, and wear a button down shirt with snaps instead of buttons so it can be accessed easily.
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during my time in the regiment on covert gigs we had tactical vests, similar to the ones shown on the front page, but slimmer and to be worn under clothes.
the idea was to keep your 9, radio etc in that, which is like a full chest belly band, and wear a button down shirt with snaps instead of buttons so it can be accessed easily.
Now that is a great idea. God knows that back in the '80s when I was rebelling against the preppy culture in jr. high, I wore my share of snap up cowboy shirts (important safety tip: do not put one on straight out of the dryer. Those snaps get hot). ;D. The idea of them being tactical is spot on. Run your hand down the seam and anything in a vest or belly bad is right there. Not particularly fashionable, butI'm old enough to have passed into Rockports and Dockers territory, one more indignity should not be too much. ;D
FQ13
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I'll still be at sea, wearing a big hat.
Can't wait till Pincus sees this thread....
From tactical vests, Louis Vitton doggy bags to guitar case machine guns! Now there's some defensive tactics...
;D
I'm sensing another lockdown..... :-\
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Bring your sleeping bag Tim, Water is no problem and I've got floor space Grin
Same goes for Texicaliber.
NO PROBLEM, send me the address for my GPS in a PM and I will bring the family, beer and a small armament along with ammo and mags when it hits the fan. I will have the security covered for ya. You will be responsible for the food and water though. ;D
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I'll still be at sea, wearing a big hat.
I'm sensing another lockdown..... :-\
I'm sensing a teaching opportunity for our favorite instructor......
...but I'll dread getting the tuition bill..... :P
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Can't wait till Pincus sees this thread....
You were the kind of kids that ran past the yards with dogs hoping you could get them to bark, weren't you?
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I vote low-profile.... guitar case, Louis Vitton, plain 'ol backpack...whatever.
Snap equipped shirts are great... and yes, they do make them outside of the Cowboy stores. ;D
I'd much rather be thought a target and prove someone wrong than expose my strengths and have them avoided or negated.
Some of you may have seen the pics from my Coast-to-Nashville Harley trip to the AK Class... I could've used any number of soft rifle cases and been legal, but the Sneaky-Bag drew 100% no attention strapped to the side of the bike.
-RJP
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You were the kind of kids that ran past the yards with dogs hoping you could get them to bark, weren't you?
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I vote low-profile.... guitar case, Louis Vitton, plain 'ol backpack...whatever.
Snap equipped shirts are great... and yes, they do make them outside of the Cowboy stores. ;D
I'd much rather be thought a target and prove someone wrong than expose my strengths and have them avoided or negated.
Some of you may have seen the pics from my Coast-to-Nashville Harley trip to the AK Class... I could've used any number of soft rifle cases and been legal, but the Sneaky-Bag drew 100% no attention strapped to the side of the bike.
-RJP
That's my thinking on this as well. The "tactical open carry vests" were intended for real soldiers who would be well out of arms reach of their enemy. Only later did all the mall ninga's pick up on them and make them trendy (trendy doesn't = practical). It's just being a little to nieve to think you will never need to be, or end up being in close proximity of other people. You aren't going to be in control of your surroundings, or you wouldn't be there at all!
Better to be "The retard carrying a guitar case" around desperate people, than have them thinking "look at all the goodies he's got! The 10 of us can take him no matter what he pulls!" Or, "I'll just shoot him in the head from behind, then rape and pillage the body." :(
Why be a target?
Rob, What was the "Sneaky-bag"?
ANYBODY could unexpectedly be in this situation. The entire east cost just got a good wash down from a tropical storm, out west there are earthquakes. Even a 30 minute power outage leads to crime, burglary, and shootings (happened days ago in Brazil).
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http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=57620 (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=57620)
-RJP
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These "mall-ninja"s referred to are in every case responding to the aftermath of the SHTF. As to low profile , I also recommend it. But however you have your equipment, be it covert or tactically cool, the number one thing is to have it. Same thought line as the J-frame in the pocket.
As far as a natural disaster, last winter's ice storm left this area/ without power for over a week. It was very hard to be tacti"cool" while wearing 5-6 layers of warm clothes.( by the way generators proved their weight in gold ) After the first wave of thieving and hotbulgeries hit, awareness on a 1-10 scale went to 11 , but the only time to get heavily prepped(more than my Glock and Jframe) was at night or prier to going out to look for supplies and gas. A lot of hostel and angry unprepped people but understandably so. When out looking for supplies the Glock35 fought back to the 870Max(590now). When at house , I used a 870MAX(the only one which sight was brought on a threat), and has been replaced with a Moss590 since, and I used the thought process of fighting to my AR which was in the "SafeRoom" along with a small supply of food and water,30rd. magizines loaded to 28 usually were brought down to 26rds. for gloved reloads, and a dump pouch had more Hornady TAP00. Not one of the tactical holsters or vest were used. Also the firearms, knifes, flashlights and light sticks were always at hand or near. Not a vest nor drop leg holster or anything cammoed was used. With exception of a single point sling on both long guns I was very lacking of tactical bliss.
The responding action to a threat should be first to move, if responsible for others move them also, then respond to the threat. Tactical bunker should be the thought process, not a one man fortress. If you are wearing all your guns and ammo, You are making it easier for them to get supplies to use against me and mine. It brings to mind the guy from "I'm Gonna Get Ya Sucker" who fell over and all of his armament started to A.D. at the same time.
NO offense meant toward anyone,
P.S. i was the kid running by the barking dog with a squirt gun and wasting them upon the pounce/bark then giggling to the water refill area to repeat cycle until owner chased furiously. So you got to ask yourself one question ??? .........are you the owner or the dog? ;D
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Long term power outages, and ice storms make people get ugly fast! Power was out for a week in MI a few years back due to a HUGE dump of snow and ice. I had been plowing all the driveways and the road we lived on from the first day (with a Yamaha quad), on the fourth day the snow let up and I didn't need to do anything on our street, so I went to the next one over and started helping them plow / shovel out. People told me things like. From now on can you be sure and have this done before my husband gets home at 4:00?!?, or Next time push all the snow to the left side of the driveway, it just looks nicer. or It's been snowing for hours today, what have you been waiting for? I needed to go to the store!, And my favorite. A guy came out laughing and said. I waited till your done to tell you this, but your not getting anything, ha, ha, ha, You should have been smart enough to ask for the money first! And he went back in his house. (I was doing it all for free anyway ::))
I never plowed anything but my street again for the 5 years after that.
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I would like to look at the glass as half full with benefit of doubt, but man, they were dinks.
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One more thought on the "keeping things secret" idea. I was talking to my wife about this and she suggested to put a "Will play for food" sign on the guitar case. Who'd possibly think of going after you for supplies at that point?!? ;)
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Urban Camoflage ;D
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Tennis racquet bags are often 30" long, and padded enough to hold their form no matter the contents. An AR carbine with the upper and lower split will fit nicely with a few spare magazines. Folding stock AK's go in them nicely to.
Nobody's going to be give you a hard time over a tennis racquet. May draw an occasional laugh.
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Tennis racquet bags are often 30" long, and padded enough to hold their form no matter the contents. An AR carbine with the upper and lower split will fit nicely with a few spare magazines. Folding stock AK's go in them nicely to.
Nobody's going to be give you a hard time over a tennis racquet. May draw an occasional laugh.
Wouldn't that classify as baiting? * snicker
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Yeah, I'd agree on the guns fitting well enough, and them being well hiden, But I'm kinda thinkin that if people are walking around in a disaster area, and your carrying a tennis racket bag... Your asking for a woop'n! ;) ;D
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Just wear the white shorts to go with it, they will assume you are an Ivy league Yuppie who's going to starve to death looking for a tennis partner. ;D