The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: long762range on November 15, 2009, 12:26:12 PM
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A major difficulty I have with the "bunker" mentality is that you are ultimately alone. Whether you have a well stocked reenforced home in the hills or in the city, survival will become iffy at best.
I believe that to increase the possiblity of survival you should develop a network of friends, family and neighbors that would come together help each other in time of need.
Such a group can share their supplies, meet medical needs, and protect each other as a group.
Even though I am now in the senior age catagory I am confident that I could survive most disasters... but If I am alone I would be easy game for a group of predators. I am always aware of my surroundings, am alwyas armed and have a plan to deal with aggressors but I do not have eyes in the back of my head and must sleep occasionally.
Most of those who settled the West went here as a group. Wagon trains gave help and protection for those were together. If you broke a wheel other members of the group would help you repair and remount it. If you became sick, others would help care for you. If there was danger of indian or other hostile forces the group could mass their arms for defense of the group.
The concept is still valid. As a group your odds of survival are greatly enhanced as are those of the other members of your group.
When the danger recedes you will have maintained your humanity because you will have helped not only yourself but others to survive with some sort of dignity.
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Look to the original frontier.
New England was explored by individual hunters and Very small groups of trappers who were penetrating enemy held territory during war time. Actual settlement was carried out by one or more families settling in close proximity to each other. But in times of danger they with drew to the security of towns such as Rumford (now Concord) where larger numbers allowed for a division of labor while freeing some men for security duties. Being mostly Scots Irish immigrants from Europe they did not find many Indians on their patrols, but their children, raised in the wilderness, such as John Stark, and Robert Rogers performed much better.
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The context of the incident probably dictate the efficacy of a group response. Most events in the modern world are essentially over on a tactical level by the time you could hope to organize the average community or group of neighbors.
And the dangers of moving into chaos to "group up" might outweigh the group dynamic benefits in the short duration.
I think that the concept, which is inherently a good one and has obvious benefits, would require a significant amount of pre-planning and efficient execution of that plan with the group goal in mind as soon as an incident was imminent or occurring. Good luck finding a group that is both motivated and dedicated enough to pull than off in 2010!
Other thoughts?
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Regardless of what you may think of their religious beliefs I think the Branch Davidian's were on the right track.
They, like the early colonists had sufficient manpower on hand, with stores weapons, gardening etc. They were far enough from town to avoid the immediate repercussions of civil unrest, but still close enough to be able to go in to market their excess production and buy or trade for what they could not produce for them selves. The biggest draw back to their set up was the use of wood structures, especially in such a dry environment. Even with out the ATF they could have been wiped out by a wild fire or major windstorm. Stone, masonry, Adobe or some form of rammed earth would have been more fire and damage resistant,cooler in the summer, easier to heat and many materials could be obtained for free.
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Just stay away from the Kool Aid those kind of people make! ;)
No, I agree with what Tom say's about the Dividions enough that I have little question their way of life threatoned established governments control as a whole, & this is why the situation was escalated to the heights it was, and why they are now dead. Stalin himself would have been quite happy with the outcome.
Read the quote at the bottom of this post.
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The key, I think is to develop a group who are willing to join together to help each other.
Perhaps this can happen easier in a small town or rural community than in a large city such as where I live.
When my wife's small town was destroyed by a tornado, neighbors joined together to help each other. Many were killed and injured and many homes were destroyed. Those who still had livible homes opened them to those who were now homeless. Food was shared, clearing of damaged homes and salvage of personal effects was done by neighbors.
No one was left to fend for themselves.
This has happened again and again in disasters in America. We are a people who help each other.
I met a elderly Japanese man who survived the great earthquake and fire which destroyed Yokohama. The government was unable to get aide workers into the area for three days. He and his siblings took their families to their elderly parents house(the only one still standing). They brought with them all of the food from their homes and lived there for 3 months helping each other. This allowed them to survive the immediate problem of starvation and exposure, by joining their supplies and efforts together.
Rob, you are right. The idea of helping each other in time of need would take significant preplanning and commitment on the part of the group. If you begin with family and immediate neighbors it can be done.
Beginning with a commitment by family(siblings, inlaws, cousins) in the area to join together, immediate neighbors who are willing can be brought into the plan and the group.
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I do not think there is "one" best or perfect system. Like martial arts combat the better well rounded individual will most likely be favored. The outcome may differ because of any number of variables, the best betting chance is what we are trying to give ourselves or looking for. I think?
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"We are a people who help each other."
Read my last post in the "Showing all your cards" thread...
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"We are a people who help each other."
Read my last post in the "Showing all your cards" thread...
"Long term power outages, and ice storms make people get ugly fast! Power was out for a week in MI a few years back due to a HUGE dump of snow and ice. I had been plowing all the driveways and the road we lived on from the first day (with a Yamaha quad), on the fourth day the snow let up and I didn't need to do anything on our street, so I went to the next one over and started helping them plow / shovel out. People told me things like. From now on can you be sure and have this done before my husband gets home at 4:00?!?, or Next time push all the snow to the left side of the driveway, it just looks nicer. or It's been snowing for hours today, what have you been waiting for? I needed to go to the store!, And my favorite. A guy came out laughing and said. I waited till your done to tell you this, but your not getting anything, ha, ha, ha, You should have been smart enough to ask for the money first! And he went back in his house. (I was doing it all for free anyway )
I never plowed anything but my street again for the 5 years after that. "
There is no doubt there are selfish people in the world. Your example of selfish greedy people taking advantage during a crisis is classic.
What you did shows you have a good heart. What others did in response to your acts of charity does not diminish the good you showed.
In a long term disaster i.e. a nuclear attack, failure of transportation due to fuel shortages, food riots, general anarchy, I believe that planned group cooperation may make the difference between survival and death.
We are Americans. We DO help each other. We may need to move away from the large cities to prove it though.
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One of the points I was trying to make with my last post , ties in with Robs, moving in chaos comment. The type of preparedness we are discussing here is not possible for large portions of the population because it is not some thing you plan for "In case", it has to be something you live every day, like the Branch Davidians, or what the Hippies were attempting to do with their "communes" back in the 60's. Second best choice would be a small rural community, If you and your neighbors are already supplying your own plants and animals for food, hunting, fishing, and practicing usable skills through your hobbies the worst crisis that can hit would be the end of outside medicines and coffee, depending on your area of course,(are there sugar beets, sugar cane, or maple trees in Texas ? ) up here I can't think of much that can not be produced with a little prior planning.
As for BM's tale, that's less likely in a more isolated community where every one knows every one else, Barn and house raising's were an American tradition in small towns well into the 20th century and every one helped because their own place had been built the same way.
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Should our nation ever face a real crisis of any magnitude worse than the Katrina storm I sure hope and pray your both right... The people who are willing to work together to remain civilized will have their hands full. Let's ALL hope they endure!!!
Plan ahead, be prepared, and do what we each can to ensure they do. I may not be able to feed a bunch of them, but I know I can share learned practical skills, and arm quite a few! ;)
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am i the only one that think zombies/ Chinese/ Russian invasion would be fun? ;D
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Don't worry BM, the ones who are willing to sit back and let you do their work will be left to die.The ones who survive will be the ones who do their share and then pitch in to help some one else.
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+2(wife was reading over my shoulder) with tom, everyone has to pay for there actions, or lack of, in time.
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I used to think my "survivalists" friends were a little crazy. All their books began with a basic premise of an economic fall which cripples the nation. Sure looks like we are headed there now.
Toss in a terrorist act and we have roving gangs looking for food and water. We nearly had that last summer when gas was short in Atlanta. They would steal your car for the gas.
Put back food and water and stores of ammo to be sure you make it.
My property is atop a mountain. I can see miles down the road. What I can see I can hit. They might get me in the end but this moutain will be littered with those who tried. They will really have to want up here badly to pay the price.
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The context of the incident probably dictate the efficacy of a group response. Most events in the modern world are essentially over on a tactical level by the time you could hope to organize the average community or group of neighbors.
.................Other thoughts?
My thought is that we are talking about an extended period of duress that more or less unfolds with various challenges and difficulties that is at least regional (multiple state) in exposure.
.............I think that the concept, which is inherently a good one and has obvious benefits, would require a significant amount of pre-planning and efficient execution of that plan with the group goal in mind as soon as an incident was imminent or occurring. Good luck finding a group that is both motivated and dedicated enough to pull than off in 2010!
Other thoughts?
I think that we should define the discussion to city-state or regional or national. City-state size I agree a group getting together would be tough...just because of the logistics...it will likely be some type of event(s) that will cause a quick decision to be made and will be over relatively quickly. I think Katrina was over "relatively quickly". Now there is lasting damage, but everyone very soon got food, water, shelter and medical attention. It would be tough for anyone but neighbors to organize and move as a group. I think, unless blessed with neighbors of like thought, this is unlikely just as you have said.
Longer term regional or national events that it does not make sense to move because there is nowhere to move to are different. They would be large in nature and either sudden (you can't really get away, i.e. nuke war) or they unflold more or less slowly. The more or less slowly is what I have in mind. In the slow unflolding scenario I think people of like thought can come together for mutual benefit. I believe our most likely sceenario today is something large that unfolds slowly...the economic mess we are in is unfoldling slowly...if the bubble bursts it will be sudden, but the lead up is slow and some people are prepared. The caveat to a group is like mind and with me like mind means being prepared and aware which now means having some food and supplies to get to the "other side" of the economic state we may soon see split from this side to some other side.
I don't think it will be to benefit the group...this is a philosophical difference I hope I get right in my explanation. It will be the group benefiting the individuals who think the same, that will be most successful. What I am trying to say is that people with the same ideals, will work and sacrifice the same for those common ideals not the preservation of the group...the group is preserved but because they all share in the same mindset...we lay our life down for our child...or a child in the group...because that life is precious...we help those who are sick and give them our share of the food because we believe that is what is right. We don't extend ourselves to those who chose to stick their heads in the ground because that lessens our chances of getting to "the other side" whatevere that is unless they can provide long term benefit and now are like thinking. I hope I am making sense here and, Rob, this may be what you meant.
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What Rastus is referring to is a group that takes on a "clannishness", or tribal instinct. This is an ancient survival instinct and is why in most native American languages there was no difference between the words for "enemy" and "stranger".
Any stranger was an unknown quantity and therefore posed a threat to the group.
In a longer term survival situation the same will apply. The person who stumbles into your perimeter may be a refugee looking to flee the known threat, or could just as easily be a scout for looters checking out your security before reporting back and planning a raid for your supplies, or a carrier of some nasty illness. Either situation puts the entire group at risk.
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I agree with everything tom say's, and would add that even a "refugee looking to get away from the known threat" is a problem for your clan. Odd's of an refugee's having their own supplies are SLIM! So they'll be looking at you and yours as the source of such. If your group decide this refugee doesn't have needed skills that outway his consumption of supplies you have two choices. Kill him on the spot, or turn him away only to have him cause far worse trouble for you later in any of a number of ways (if he even talks to other individuals you'll likely face trouble as a result). Survival of the fittest is not pretty.
I've been told some area's hit by Katrina saw no outside supplies for as long as a month!
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BM brings up a valid point that was addressed in Rawles book "Patriots". and a very simple solution was presented.
Never let strangers beyond your outer perimeter until you either decide to accept them or blind fold them so they gain no useful information.
Personally I find that solution more acceptable than killing everyone who happens to stumble on your location.
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;D Yeah, all those bodies would start getting ripe after a while. ;D The key is like you say, keep ALL outsiders from learning anything about you. ;)
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It would probably be advisable to at least talk to them and find out information. They would be a great source of intel but they may be trying to decieve you also. Hard question to answer until faced with it.
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The way it was handled in Rawles book was they conducted a search and field interrogation of every one who came along.
When they finally started linking up with other groups, initial meetings were held on neutral ground.
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Neutral ground that my friends can cover with a .308
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Not a very "Trusting" sort are you ? ;D
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Nope.
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What y'all are dancing around, but haven't named, is the breakdown of trust. Communities, as Rastus notes are made up of those of like minds or goals. Yet how are you to know who is who in a TEOTAWKI scenario? This board is an example.We are an intentional community, built on shared principles and interests. We (even me, Eric and TAB) are folks we can trust. But, it is a community built on a very fragile infra-structure. Turn off the net and we are on our own. In order to thrive, not just survive in your own private Alamo, trust needs to be built. This is the big question. How do you do it? Rastus and I disagree on small stuff, on the big things, we would get along if we had to. How do we decide to round file small things? How do we decide which refugee wuld be a useful member? These questions are what I study for living as a political scientist and darned if I know the answers.
FQ13
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I am not saying that I dont trust fellows from this board, but you live far away from me and our chance meeting in that scenario is limited. It is most of my neighbors that I do not trust because they may be a little liberal and I take them as a threat.
What y'all are dancing around, but haven't named, is the breakdown of trust. Communities, as Rastus notes are made up of those of like minds or goals. Yet how are you to know who is who in a TEOTAWKI scenario? This board is an example.We are an intentional community, built on shared principles and interests. We (even me, Eric and TAB) are folks we can trust. But, it is a community built on a very fragile infra-structure. Turn off the net and we are on our own. In order to thrive, not just survive in your own private Alamo, trust needs to be built. This is the big question. How do you do it? Rastus and I disagree on small stuff, on the big things, we would get along if we had to. How do we decide to round file small things? How do we decide which refugee wuld be a useful member? These questions are what I study for living as a political scientist and darned if I know the answers.
FQ13
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I am not saying that I dont trust fellows from this board, but you live far away from me and our chance meeting in that scenario is limited. It is most of my neighbors that I do not trust because they may be a little liberal and I take them as a threat.
I'm a little liberal, but I'll show up at your door with a lot of supplies, a bunch of guns, survival skills and old school values when it comes to taking care of your own. If it ever comes to this, politics are over, no one with a brain will give a damn about abortion or gay mariage. It will be about protecting the "tribe" and being useful.
FQ13
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I'd welcome you, but not my neighbor across the street he hates my guts and I hate his.
I'm a little liberal, but I'll show up at your door with a lot of supplies, a bunch of guns, survival skills and old school values when it comes to taking care of your own. If it ever comes to this, politics are over, no one with a brain will give a damn about abortion or gay mariage. It will be about protecting the "tribe" and being useful.
FQ13
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What y'all are dancing around, but haven't named, is the breakdown of trust. Communities, as Rastus notes are made up of those of like minds or goals. Yet how are you to know who is who in a TEOTAWKI scenario? This board is an example.We are an intentional community, built on shared principles and interests. We (even me, Eric and TAB) are folks we can trust. But, it is a community built on a very fragile infra-structure. Turn off the net and we are on our own. In order to thrive, not just survive in your own private Alamo, trust needs to be built. This is the big question. How do you do it? Rastus and I disagree on small stuff, on the big things, we would get along if we had to. How do we decide to round file small things? How do we decide which refugee wuld be a useful member? These questions are what I study for living as a political scientist and darned if I know the answers.
FQ13
That's why you want to have your home as fitted out for survival as possible, the less reason you have to leave the better, you have spent years learning who is who and what is what in your own vicinity, It's part of why I go downtown for coffee every day, it's a place to meet the locals on neutral ground, the regulars all know each other, maybe not by name, but by face, and since I'm not shy about throwing comments into the others conversations, they know where I stand on most things.
Every where I live I pick one restaurant to frequent, it becomes the place "where every one knows my name " and gives me an introduction to locals I would not have met other wise, the out going Mayor for example, is a regular at lunch time.
It's kind of simple, if it isn't worth dying over, then it gets filed under agree to disagree, because that might be the result of not pooling your resources, But that is only the case with some one you already know. Strangers aren't trusted until proven by acts.
FQ, you will never reach a practical answer by "studying" it. You have to go into the real world and LIVE it. That's why you and I seldom agree on things, you "study" human interactions, I get out and experience them OUTSIDE of a structured setting of a class room. Once a person has the 3 R's down and knows where to go for reference material, (Library, or Internet ) a classroom has little or no practicle information to offer.
As an example, BO has a whole bunch of college educated advisers, and he says he's going to "spend us back to prosperity".
Any one who has ever balanced a check book knows that that is sheer idiocy.
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Agree.
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Like anything else in life you have to experience failure to learn, hopefully the failure is not (A)wasted failure and/or (B) life ending .
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I'd welcome you, but not my neighbor across the street he hates my guts and I hate his.
Next time you have an oportunity strike up a conversation with him. Talk about TEOTWAWKI, and encourage him to buy up lots of supplies! When things get tough you won't feel so bad killing him for them, and it saves you the money of having to buy them yourself. He may even devulge some usefull information about himself to you. At the least if you play your cards right he'll likely develope a little fear of you... Oh, is that cold blooded logic? Well, it's still logic. And if your not willing to be cold blooded you won't last anyway.
"Keep your friends close, & your enemy's closer"
This kind of thinking is why even if you DON'T like your neighbor, your wise to treat them politely (so as not to be #1 on their list!)
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Badger, no offense, but you have just given me second reason not to visit SC. ;D
FQ13
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It'll be hard for us all seeing people around us go into a "survival of the fittest" mentality. But if you aren't the "fittest"...
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It'll be hard for us all seeing people around us go into a "survival of the fittest" mentality. But if you aren't the "fittest"...
You need to be the most devious ;D
What's that old saying about youth and fitness losing out to experience and treachery. ;D
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You need to be the most devious ;D
What's that old saying about youth and fitness losing out to experience and treachery. ;D
So basically, I should move next door to Billt? Howdy, neighbor! ;D ;D ;D
FQ13
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Sounds like bulldog will have an empty place near him. ;)
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I will take Tom over Bill no matter how many cool guns and awesome armament and a krap load of ammo and good food and and great avatars/scenery..........well Tom is closer and Like Minded...........wait a minute that like minded thing might just get me a butstroke from a shotgun. MAN! Damned if I do OR don't. :-\
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No, I won't wallop you or Tim, I expect YOU GUYS to cover my back while I wallop one of the know it all locals. ;D
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You need to be the most devious ;D
What's that old saying about youth and fitness losing out to experience and treachery. ;D
Who is it (what group(s)) that the fascist round up to eliminate first....people who have the capacity to be treacherous.
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That's why you've got to be efficent about it. Kill off all the neighbors that might tell on you before they can spread word. ;)
Then just play dumb and confused. Avoid them when possible, but when needed, just blend in with the herd. Go out trying to look all calm, cool, & well prepared and it'll get you dead. :(
Preditors can sense prey. Visibly carrying anything anybody else might want will make you look like a twinkie to a fat girl.
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Who is it (what group(s)) that the fascist round up to eliminate first....people who have the capacity to be treacherous.
I disagree with this, like any bully they pick on the week to make their examples. They will use this to try to get compliance from the strong, and at least get some cracks in the leadership and dissension of persons. Look at N.O. Katrina for example. There were heavily armed and guarded mansions,"well nothing to see here!?!?" was their response. But a little old lady with a Curio and Relics pistol "!Take her OUT!!!! COMPLY!!!! DO NOT RESIST!!!!" and make sure it is 'caught' on video. Yeah right.
Do not worry, the "fascist entity" wants nothing to do with the strong, hence the promotion of Generations of Sheeple.
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The ones they will deal with first are the sheep who say, "oh well, they say we have to" and climb into the cattle cars like the good little Jews did.
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Next time you have an oportunity strike up a conversation with him. Talk about TEOTWAWKI, and encourage him to buy up lots of supplies! When things get tough you won't feel so bad killing him for them, and it saves you the money of having to buy them yourself. He may even devulge some usefull information about himself to you. At the least if you play your cards right he'll likely develope a little fear of you... Oh, is that cold blooded logic? Well, it's still logic. And if your not willing to be cold blooded you won't last anyway.
"Keep your friends close, & your enemy's closer"
This kind of thinking is why even if you DON'T like your neighbor, your wise to treat them politely (so as not to be #1 on their list!)
See we use to talk but he has blamed alot of things on my kids. He says that my kids and my kids cats tear up his yard. Sorry it was not my kids it was the neighbors kid that he kisses butt with. He doesnt like me because I had dealings with his dirtbag best friends kid and he did not like my answer. His best dirtbag friends kid likes to take about 6 of his friends and they find a weak person in a bar and they send them to the hospital. The last one had brain damage. The positive side is that he has prepared for TEOTWAWKI and he has no military background.
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I think the most important thing is to "brain storm" the solution(s) with my family, this is a long and drawn out process and I had forgotten of this thread until last night when my wife brought up the fact that we as a family are not any more prepared sense the '08 New England Ice Storm. Still without a generator, alternative heating source, large stock of food, or other necessities. Also an infant for an addition to the family to add to the complexity.
A frazzled tex. This problem seems to great in its complexities.
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Don't sweat it Tex....I've lived here close to thirty years now and those kinds of storms are few and far between. You can't possibly plan for them. The man upstairs decided our fates before we were born....
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Who is it (what group(s)) that the fascist round up to eliminate first....people who have the capacity to be treacherous.
Actually if you look at the Russian Revolution and the rise of the Nazi's the first ones they killed were the ones who got them into power.
The first ones the Bolsheviks killed of were the other socialist parties, and the first ones Hitler whacked were the Brown Shirts.
Tex, on food and baby stuff, just buy extra each week. the only Big purchase I would suggest is a wood stove with a flat top. Candles or Kerosene lamps will do for light.
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I'm too much of an independent thinker to want to thrust myself into some sort of group dynamic situation. Yeah, I could be a leader, but I don't want to baby sit people.
I can travel faster with less noise...err...flying under the radar ...by myself. I have been through Air Force SERE. I know what it is to be without food for days on end. I know what it is like to have to land nav at night with just a map and compass. I know what it is like to have people after me in the middle of the night.
A bunker is only as good as its ability to resist a Molotov cocktail.
Do yourselves a favor....next time you have an empty glass beer bottle, fill it with water, go out to some field and throw it as far as you can.
That is the distance or the killing zone/range you really need to be worried about. Big whoop if your favorite "sniper rifle" can shoot dime sized groups at 100 or 200 yards. You'll need to be able to stop a "zombie" dead in their tracks with a lit firebomb in his or her hands from about 50 yards out.
A friend's husband wrote a book on an S hit the F scenario. Jeesh, I can't remember his name for the life of me, but I heard from his wife that they moved into a log cabin. That sounds like a fairly good idea for surving a bunker or hunker down situation. The logs are thick enough to stop most pistol bullets. If they were really thinking, I hope they went with a metal standing seam type roof and for real operating shutters, preferably made out of metal.
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I'm too much of an independent thinker to want to thrust myself into some sort of group dynamic situation. Yeah, I could be a leader, but I don't want to baby sit people.
I can travel faster with less noise...err...flying under the radar ...by myself. I have been through Air Force SERE. I know what it is to be without food for days on end. I know what it is like to have to land nav at night with just a map and compass. I know what it is like to have people after me in the middle of the night.
A bunker is only as good as its ability to resist a Molotov cocktail.
Do yourselves a favor....next time you have an empty glass beer bottle, fill it with water, go out to some field and throw it as far as you can.
That is the distance or the killing zone/range you really need to be worried about. Big whoop if your favorite "sniper rifle" can shoot dime sized groups at 100 or 200 yards. You'll need to be able to stop a "zombie" dead in their tracks with a lit firebomb in his or her hands from about 50 yards out.
A friend's husband wrote a book on an S hit the F scenario. Jeesh, I can't remember his name for the life of me, but I heard from his wife that they moved into a log cabin. That sounds like a fairly good idea for surving a bunker or hunker down situation. The logs are thick enough to stop most pistol bullets. If they were really thinking, I hope they went with a metal standing seam type roof and for real operating shutters, preferably made out of metal.
Saw a movie once where the guy dug a shooting trench inside his cabin! That way he was protected from incoming fire by the ground, out of their normal line of fire anyway, and had rifle slits around the floor of the cabin to shoot back through. Charles Bronson was in it.
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A'yup, yessir! That was Charlie Bronson in the 1981 movie Death Hunt.
It also co-starred Lee Marvin. Here is the IMDB link:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082247/
And here is the trailer on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcZhmyd7D7A
If you pay real close attention to the first 5 seconds of the video, you can see where I get an idea of how or why I think shutters are important. That's pretty darn neat how he has that rigged up.
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You should read "Patriots" by JW Rawles. He gets into a lot of that type of stuff.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LH9cMdaYMM
Sorry, but remember the operator lady in "Office Space"?
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Nah...I don't remember the lady from Office Space.
That video was kind of a buzzkill. >:(
Kerosene heaters will work inside, but the smell. Uggh... Yuck!