The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: ericire12 on November 18, 2009, 12:04:48 PM
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Well, it has been a good long while since we did this one, so I thought it would be fun to rehash it again. We also have a lot of new members now and some new "Staff" as well, and it will be interesting to get their input. Yep, Everything old is new again!
Here is the original poll/thread:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=1576.0
*You will note that .380 won handily
.22 Short - 6 (2.5%)
.22 LR - 20 (8.4%)
.25ACP - 10 (4.2%)
.32ACP - 31 (13.1%)
.380.ACP - 105 (44.3%)
9mm (+p) - 47 (19.8%)
38 Special (+p) - 18 (7.6%)
Total Voters: 234
**I am changing my original vote from 9mm to .32 since I picked up this little pea shooter:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=8796.0
I still view it as a knife of steroids, but it sure is nice to have when you cant carry a gun.
***Kudos to hodman for the original poll -- and also on the whole "I just need faster reloads with my wallet " thing.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1217
(http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/2erOBh1.gif)
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I'd only carry a .32 for a back up.
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If this poll were conucted 15 years ago I would vote .380. Now, you can get a 9mm for about the same size. Why compromise? Push comes to shove for tiny, MAYBE the kel-tec .32, but I would sure try to conceal a .9mm first.
FQ13
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I still view it as a knife of steroids, but it sure is nice to have when you cant carry a gun.
You can ALWAYS carry a gun, it's your willilngness to actually obey the rules that is the determining factor!
I vote none of the above....but that's not listed...
;D
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If this poll were conucted 15 years ago I would vote .380. Now, you can get a 9mm for about the same size. Why compromise? Push comes to shove for tiny, MAYBE the kel-tec .32, but I would sure try to conceal a .9mm first.
FQ13
Show me the 9x19 that is 8.3 oz, 5.2'' long, 3.5'' high, and .77'' wide ???
You can ALWAYS carry a gun, it's your willilngness to actually obey the rules that is the determining factor!
I vote none of the above....but that's not listed...
;D
I dont even carry my .32 when the "rules" say that I cant. I have said this before, but there are times when it is just not feasible for me to carry a larger gun. The P32 fills that void and allows me something other then a stern look and harsh words to fend off a foe.... What was it Jay said about being "armed with just our dicks"?
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9429.msg122180#msg122180
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Show me the 9x19 that is 8.3 oz, 5.2'' long, 3.5'' heigh, and .77'' wide ???
I
The Kel-tech PF9 is 12.7 oz (weight advantage, .380, but this should tell you something) Length 5.85", Height 4.3" and Width .88". To me the difference is negligable and the extra umph easily out weighs the extra 4 oz. Just my .02.
FQ13
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The Kel-tech PF9 is 12.7 oz (weight advantage, .380, but this should tell you something) Length 5.85", Height 4.3" and Width .88". To me the difference is negligable and the extra umph easily out weighs the extra 4 oz. Just my .02.
FQ13
You are comparing a subcompact with a pocket pistol. That PF9 wont fit any better in your pocket then a Glock 26 will.
(http://www.mouseguns.com/quad.jpg)
(http://www.mouseguns.com/weights.jpg)
*The Rohrbaugh is pocket sized, but weighs 12.8 ounces, and around 15 ounces fully loaded.
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Assuming we're talking primary, not secondary... I'd add .45 to the option list.
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My vote is "Minimum" cal is .22lr. That is a nasty little round that can do plenty of damage with correct shot placement and as stated it is just above having a knife. With that said, I carry a Beretta Tomcat in .32 acp good little round and I can conceal it year around. With the cold weather months upon us that will drop to a backup but still. I'd rather have that than just my knife. It is not a sniper weapon and I don't expect it to be. It isn't the most powerful thing out there but if that was the case then just strap on a 500 S&W. I sure don't want to be hit with any firearm let alone the Gold Dots I have for my .32 I don't have a hero complex of any sort so I think that my 32 will be just fine.
I don't want to officially ask a question. Maybe it should be a thread I don't know. I know that I wouldn't have a problem answering if it were thrown out but I'm just wondering how many DRTV'ers have been involved in shootings and what they used and if it was effective? Did everyone just run out of ammo if it wasn't? No details needed and I don't really care.. It just seems the caliber question keeps coming up and people get in big arguments that you shouldn't carry anything smaller than ________ or you shouldn't carry a semi-auto/revolver. I carry what I carry. I train with what I carry and that is all I can do until they let me walk around with my M1A slung and webgear full of hand grenades
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If this poll were conucted 15 years ago I would vote .380. Now, you can get a 9mm for about the same size. Why compromise? Push comes to shove for tiny, MAYBE the kel-tec .32, but I would sure try to conceal a .9mm first.
FQ13
I chose .380 just because it and 9x18 have demonstrated minimum carry power requirements. But FQ is right about pistol size. Why carry one when you can carry .40 in about the same size package ?
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Anything is better than nothing. Where I work I can't even carry a knife anymore. So if someone picks a gun because of its size, I can understand. This is what I tell people now.... I use my empty hand till I get my knife, my knife till I get my handgun, and my handgun till I can get my rifle. Right now I am looking at a 380, but Kel-tech or Ruger is my big dilemma .
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Anything is better than nothing. Where I work I can't even carry a knife anymore. So if someone picks a gun because of its size, I can understand. This is what I tell people now.... I use my empty hand till I get my knife, my knife till I get my handgun, and my handgun till I can get my rifle. Right now I am looking at a 380, but Kel-tech or Ruger is my big dilemma .
Hey Salt.. While the Ruger and the Kel-tec are essentially the same thing. The Ruger is a little more refined than the Kel-tec. I have a friend that bought a Kel-tec a couple of years ago and he is thinking about getting a Ruger now. The trigger gaurd is slightly bigger and smoother as to not pinch the finger on trigger reset. The gun doesn't have the sharp edges that were remedied with a dremel tool on the Kel-tec. Also the Ruger has a slide lock which is a nice feature also. We drove around to several gun and pawn shops in the Quad City area a couple of days ago and there was only about 10 to 20 dollars difference in the two. (We even had that difference erased by the time we were done with the heckeling) These are only the Opinions of a friend of mine. Actually a couple of friends of mine say the same about the trigger gaurd. (They were a little more liberal with the dremel tool)
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MINIMUM I have carried due to a horrible neighborhood, tucked in uniform shirt, and no weapons policy is the .32 acp Kel-Tec. And I've been to job interviews with the .32 in one pocket, and a NAA .22 Mag in the other. I prefer over that, the .380 Kel-Tec, and now that I've gotten my .357 J-frame, which conceals in a pocket almost as well, I prefer that. I hated having a .32 or .380 as my only gun, BUT I HAD THE GUN WITH ME when my GLOCK .45 and my Taurus .357 were at home in the safe. If given choice, I'd carry bigger, but like I saw one of the Gunsite (IIRC ?) instructors say a couple weeks ago on NRA's American Guardian TV show (About a mousegun, uh I mean Pocket Pistol, ;D training class), "Nobody's gonna sit there and take a face full of .380 bullets {Or .22, or .25, or .32, for that matter} and like it." At one time I'd have said, and HAVE said before, that the minimum I'd carry is .357 Mag, but Having to be armed while "not Armed" changed that for me.
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Anybody notice nobody picked .22 short or .25? ;D I knew a guy who carried a Dixie Gun Works .36 black powder double barrel derringer for a while.
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glock 26 is a excellent choice.
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Bulldog75! Just bought a 26, WOW, what a fine small BUG. Here in Texas, no Concealed Handgun Instructor I know will recommend anything smaller than .380 , and consider it the absolute minimum carry weapon.
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kmbrman I bought mine in 1998 and have not had any problems with it. I shoot federal hydroshocks through it and it is my carry anywhere gun. I have seen guys buy one for their wife and have nothing but problems with it (limp wristing it). You have to have a good grip and they will not stove pipe on you.
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kmbrman I bought mine in 1998 and have not had any problems with it. I shoot federal hydroshocks through it and it is my carry anywhere gun. I have seen guys buy one for their wife and have nothing but problems with it (limp wristing it). You have to have a good grip and they will not stove pipe on you.
My wife shoots it just fine.................. everyone knows where I stand on the 26
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My wife shoots it just fine.................. everyone knows where I stand on the 26
Please, oh pretty please, tell us again of this wondrous thing called "Glock".
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Bulldog75! Just bought a 26, WOW, what a fine small BUG. Here in Texas, no Concealed Handgun Instructor I know will recommend anything smaller than .380 , and consider it the absolute minimum carry weapon.
I'm not surprised........isn't everything bigger in Texas? ;)
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Please, oh pretty please, tell us again of this wondrous thing called "Glock".
;D ;D ;D ;D
Gather round, children. Twas the night before Christmas......
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Hell I have carried it for a backup gun too while on duty. It is not a man cannon
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I'll say .32ACP...but with a caveat or two.
It works as a carry gun if loaded with FMJ made by a European ammo company (i.e. S&B, Fiocci, etc.). European ammo tends to be loaded hotter than American ammo, esp. in the pocket pistol calibers. In fact, the Europeans found out that the .32ACP had the same performance as the .380ACP...and gave you an extra shot to boot.
That said, I'd only carry it as a backup or hideout if I couldn't carry something larger. Like a micro-9mm or airweight .38...
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I said it once before but my brother-in-law shot a guy breaking into his car with a .22 LR and stopped the theif. The burglar was later arrested at the hospital that my brother-in-law's wife worked in. So my vote goes for a .22 LR because I can hit many times will it and not worry about recoil at all out of a lite pistol or revolver. And we are talking minimum not what I would carry if given a choice which would be a .45 ACP or .44 Special revolver.
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.......but I'm just wondering how many DRTV'ers have been involved in shootings and what they used and if it was effective?
45 ACP and Absolutely!
I want to state that I would not want to be shot by any of the choices listed......Something else: Bill Rogers carries, as a BUG, a .22 MAG S&W revolver. I certainly would hate to have a hostile conversation with him and that revolver..... ;)
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FullAuto . The only shot that matters, just like you said, is the one that hits it's mark. A miss with a .45acp is useless and a solid one with a .22 is great.
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45 ACP and Absolutely!
I want to state that I would not want to be shot by any of the choices listed......Something else: Bill Rogers carries, as a BUG, a .22 MAG S&W revolver. I certainly would hate to have a hostile conversation with him and that revolver..... ;)
Thanks FA for your response. Like I stated. I think any firearm is better that just your knife. Sometimes the weather and situation doesn't allow for a fullsize .45 auto or Alaskan hand cannon. As stated I always have my .32 Beretta on me. If I can I also carry my Fullsize P99 Walther .40 Both with GoldDot ammo.
FullAuto . The only shot that matters, just like you said, is the one that hits it's mark. A miss with a .45acp is useless and a solid one with a .22 is great.
Point exactly
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Ugh Hum, Eric,
I haven't, & won't say a word on results so far...
(http://img1.jurko.net/chicken-little2.gif)
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Ugh Hum, Eric,
I haven't, & won't say a word on results so far...
(http://img1.jurko.net/chicken-little2.gif)
I can't resist ;D
Let's see, there's Eric, BM, and me.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9813.0
What do YOU think Eric ? ::) ;D
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Badger-
Lets step back to reality here for a minute..... Yes, I am surprised that the % of responses for .22 lr is as high as it is in this poll, but come on, there were 25% of people in the old poll that voted .22 Its a caliber that a lot of people carry as a BUG or as an alternative when they cant carry anything else. Like many of the other sub-calibers, I think .22 lr is better then harsh words and slightly higher up the food chain then a knife, but IMO its not very desirable..... Especially when its coming from a handgun.... made even worse when coming from such a short barrel as that Beretta or those mini revolvers. I can not call that a caliber that is safe for personal protection/concealed carry.
The whole throw down that everyone on this forum had with you....
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=5692.0
.... centered around your use of completely false numbers to make the case that .22 lr was more effective then even the .45 ACP - not to mention the Rambo way you were presenting the entire thing. The outrage came over you trying to pass off false ballistic info as fact and then still standing by it even when presented with actual factual numbers.
Your false numbers:
Caliber Muzzle Velocity 100yd Velocity Muzzle Energy 100 yd Energy Impact at 100yrds
380 1000 913 200 167 neg 1.2
?? 1750 1191 533 363 neg1.4 <--------------------------- .22 lr
9mm 1200 1047 341 280 neg0.9
.40S&W 980 930 350 316 neg1.2
0.45 1080 944 518 439 neg0.9
.44 mag 1830 1475 1859 1208 PLUS 7.3
Actual ballistic performance of the .22 lr out of a pocket pistol:
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm
Aguila Super Maximum 30gr
.22 lr Gelatin Tests
Test pistol: Taurus PT-22 - 2.75 inch barrel <--------- Thats the Taurus copy of your Beretta
Velocity
fps / st dv 1027 19.8
FP Energy 70 <------------------
Penetration
inches / st dv 11.6 0.65
Expansion
inches / st dv .220 0.00
Put your little dancing chicken away, buddy. Your argument is still complete and total POOP! You are delusional at best. If you think that the actual performance of a .22 lr is good enough to bet your life on.... well, thats up to you...... But lets not mislead other people that might read this forum..... They probably would like to make a more informed decision because their life might be worth more then yours is.
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everyone has to work out his or her own salvation. I'm amazed at the restrictions in certain states about what you can carry. In FLA. if your a security guard or in that line of work you can only carry 9mm max. When I got my permit back in 89 the minimum was .38 spl here in Tn. you can carry anything. I read in a gun mag that with the new ammo availability they were rating the .380 over the 9mm now in stopping power, WHAT ! Its all promo and who's getting paid. Big holes bleed more, people die from loss of blood, the only one shot stop is a CNS hit or brain shot through the ocular cavity. You need a round that will do both.
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In FL for self defense you can carry anything. Guns, knives, clubs (baton), etc.
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I didn't vote, because in my opinion it is about usability more than power factor. I'm a full believer in the most powerful that you can comfortably shoot and carry comfortably. If all you can handle and conceal is a .22lr that is better than nothing and better than something too big for you. If you can shoot a 9 mm it has the power to make someone either dead or at least change their minds. If you can shoot a .45 acp it will not only do massive damage, but it will knock them over if you at least hit mass. And, a .40 has darn near the same balistics as a .45 acp in the range we talk about for self defence ... speaking of which ...
Badger ... what are you doing quoting 100 yard ballistics in a self defense situation. Self defense is typically a 25 foot radius, and 100 yards is predator ... you're the predator!
Test ergonomics, concealability and comfort. Beyond that there is no such thing as too big or too small.
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Some people still just don't get it, and never will :-\
It's all good. ;D Ideally, I'd be carrying a 12 gauge around on a sling. ;D But legal or not, for me it's not worth dealing with the reactions. :-\ Feel free to rant about that for hours as well, I've stopped bothering to read certain peoples replies a long time ago.
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Some people still just don't get it, and never will :-\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg
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The reason I said .380 is I was not thinking about ability to handle recoil, I was simply thinking you want something small to carry (as I do).
Yes, ABSO-FRIGGIN-LUTELY any gun is better than none. Heck I have a 9 shot .22 near the front door and when I grab it to answer the door with I don't really feel 'nekid'.
Now, again IF I could carry anything I want I have my lever gun with me at all times and my .45 Redhawk at my side and would still carry the P3AT. (am I paranoid? ;) ) (probably could empty the GFs purse and put TWO Redhawks in there. They would fit and the damn thing would weigh less than it does now! ;D )
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Forgot I just watched the terrible movie called Assassians with Sly and Antonio B. in it, and guess what silenced .22 Rugers were the weapons of choice. If Hollyweird says professional killers use .22's then it must be true.
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Thanks M58 for backing me up and have the post count to back it up. Who the heck is shooting BG's at a 100 yards? I think that is a little outside of the self defense "Intent, Capability and Opprotunity"
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Forgot I just watched the terrible movie called Assassians with Sly and Antonio B. in it, and guess what silenced .22 Rugers were the weapons of choice. If Hollyweird says professional killers use .22's then it must be true.
True about the movie...but it does bring up a point....
The .22lr is dependent on velocity to do it's job...and more barrel = more velocity. If the numbers in ericire12's post are correct, I'm impressed with how fast the Aguila's are moving from a 2.75" barrel....but think of how much faster they'd move from a 5-6" barrel on a Ruger or Browning pistol. Entirely different creature. I'm not promoting .22lr in a long-barreled pistol for SD....but I'm not going to discount it, either....
...and, when that Kel-Tec .22mag hits the market, I'm looking forward to owning a 30-rd pistol firing a round ballistically similar to .380ACP/.38SPL non-+P. It would definitely ruin some BG's day.... 8)
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From personal experience with .44 mag, .44 special, .45 Colt and 22lr I have found that the difference in velocity between a hand gun and a rifle is ~300 fps.