The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: LeadSlead on November 24, 2009, 10:07:19 AM
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I'm looking at acquiring a 7.62 rifle and am considering three different variants; an FAL from DSA, Rock River LAR8 or DPMS Panther LR-AP4.
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The AR system gives better accuracy and drop free mags which speed up reloads. As for Rock River or DPMS, I would choose based on Mag availability and price. Current 308 AR's use propriatary Mags, in other words, what works in one probably will not work in another brand.
I would wait till spring and get the CMMG Gas piston model that will accept $10 a peice G3 mags, or build on the reciever they offer now.
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=2023908&cat=98&
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The AR system gives better accuracy and drop free mags which speed up reloads. As for Rock River or DPMS, I would choose based on Mag availability and price. Current 308 AR's use propriatary Mags, in other words, what works in one probably will not work in another brand.
I would wait till spring and get the CMMG Gas piston model that will accept $10 a peice G3 mags, or build on the reciever they offer now.
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=2023908&cat=98&
+1 or just get an M1A ;D
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Know the Rock River uses both Metric and Inch Pattern FAL magazines, which are readily available and DPMS makes their own. I've always wanted an FAL, so even if I started with a AR-10, the Rock River one would not require me getting different magazines. Am aware that the AR gives better accuracy than the FAL and that the magazines drop free. Have thought of the M1A, but not my first or second choice and if I went for one would go for either the Scout or SOCOM II (minus the rail attachment).
Have considered the POF P-308, LMT 308 MWS, and CMMG Gas Piston models, but am not ready to pay $2K/over.
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+1 or just get an M1A ;D
I thought seriously about the AR platform when I was interested in adding a semi auto .308 to my collection. I went with the M-1A instead. I'm happier for it. Nothing "wrong" with the .308 AR's mind you. They are fine weapons with many good attributes, but the M-14 platform just "felt like it belonged". When you pick up an M-1A in most any flavor, it simply feels "like it belongs in your hand", if that makes any sense. For me I could acquire the target much faster on follow up shots with the M-1A, than I could with my friends .308 AR. I'm happy with both of my Springfield M-1A's, and would recommend them to anyone looking for a battle rifle with plenty of firepower and "soup"! Bill T.
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This is a question that is asked so often, I've actually created a "stock" answer...although the variations usually include the G3/PTR91 and M1A. While this answer isn't targeted specifically at the AR variations you ask, this is my "stock" answer.
Here are the rifles I'm using for my opinion...don't own an AR10 so using the AR15s as a proxy.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/d6ykz.jpg)
Cold War era battle rifles
CETME, 7.62x51mm
PTR91, 7.62x51mm
DSA StG58A, 7.62x51mm
DSA SA58, 7.62x51mm
Egyptian FN49, 7.92x57mm
Springfield Armory M1A Loaded, 7.62x51mm
WASR-10 AKM, , 7.62x39mm
Yugoslavian SKS M59/66, 7.62x39mm
(http://i39.tinypic.com/rs93k7.jpg)
AR-15 based rifles
J&T 24” varmint upper on DPMS lower, 5.56x45mm
CMT upper, 18” WOA barrel on AeroPrecision lower, 6.8x43mm SPC
J&T M4-gery upper on DPMS lower, 5.56x45mm
WOA DCM upper on Rock River lower, 5.56x45mm
Olympic Arms upper on DPMS lower, 9x19mm
In the end, you need to pick the one that fits you best and you can shoot the best. For me, that is the FAL. M1A would be a close second.
Here's my synopsis of your choices:
M1A
Pro
- reliable design
- full power cartridge
- very comfortable (for most) stock
- can be quite accurate
- great sights
- safety is convenient location in trigger guard
Con
- scope mounting is awkward over the receiver
- field stripping has lots of part/not straightforward
- can't be cleaned from chamber side with a rod
- expensive mags
FAL
Pro
- reliable design
- full power cartridge
- extremely good ergonomics
- cheap mags
- extraordinarily easy to break down, field strip, clean
- adjustable gas system
Con
- Sights are adequate but better A2 style sights exist
- Triggers not known to be great but they can be improved
HK91/G3/PTR91
Pro
- reliable design
- full power cartridge
- cheap mags
- somewhat easy to break down, field strip, clean
Con
- Sights are adequate
- No bolt hold open
- Abysmal ergonomics - safety selector is near impossible to reach, cocking handle is in terrible place, mag release is hard to reach
- Triggers are absolutely horrible but they can be improved
AR-series
Pro
- proven design
- full power cartridge
- fantastic ergonomics
- extraordinarily easy to break down, field strip, clean
- very modular
Con
- Expensive mags
- Not as common...but still plenty of parts around
- Charging handle is in a silly place
All this said, I think the FAL is the best of these. If you want the AR for the ergonomics, you won't lose with that rifle. You'll hae to make a choice on long vs short barrel...on most of my rifle platforms, I have both...sometimes I like the velocity, sometimes I like the compactness.
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I own a Cetme and like it. So far for the money a good gun. If I were to buy a new .308, then I would go with the Rock River or an M1a. I have a Rock River Varmit AR-15 and love it. Just the other day I was about to put a Springfield M1a on layaway when I remembered my wife would kill me. Maybe next year ;D!
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I have a DPMS LR-308 which I have had great success with. However, having said that.....I would advise you to stay clear of DPMS for the time being. Over the last year they have been getting many of their parts manufactured overseas, and not here. Rumor is that these parts are proving to be inferior to American made components. (Uh Duh! ::) ) I am not saying the DPMS is a bad company, but I would seriously look at this issue before purchasing on of their rifles. As I said I own one of them and I am way happy with it. But I also bought it before this change happened.
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FAL! And DSA makes a GREAT ONE!
Where do you live? I have the DPMS you speak of with an Eotech, and (6) mag.'s. It's an '05 model, pre-Remington / Cerberus F'ing them up. I may consider letting go (to help save up for a DSA for myself! ;D). It's in perfect shape, but as some people may have picked up on somehow, I'm just not the very biggest fan of the AR platform in general. :-\
I'm not really looking to sell that particular rifle, but have lately been considering selling off my whole collection to start fresh with only the four "premium" firearms I really love best. Just bouncing an idea around... I'd be thinning the herd by about 20 or so. :-\
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Unless you need grocery money don't sell your only "anything", if you have a couple AR's then OK sell ONE, but you may change your mind in the future and not be able to replace what you sold.
As an example, Now you are a fan of .308, what if you get rid of your .223 AR's,and then, as happened to an acquaintance of mine you develop arthritis in your shoulders and can no longer handle the recoil of .308 but can still handle an AR 15 with out pain.
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Ahh, I don't need the cash or anything, but there's been more and more times lately I look in there and think. Holy crap! This has gotten a little out of hand. And I DO like the DSA's! ;D
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I had the Century Cetme, the G-3 is a good rifle if you don't mind the fluted chamber, but the Century's suck, they are notorious for having the sights welded on crooked.
I would buy another one from another maker but I would not consider another Century ANYTHING unless I could shoot it first.
Also the Century stock is cheap plastic crap that does not even accommodate the sling they send with it, plan on replacing the furniture out of the box.
Again, my complaint is not with the G3, it's with the crap job Century did on them.
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Ahh, I don't need the cash or anything, but there's been more and more times lately I look in there and think. Holy crap! This has gotten a little out of hand. And I DO like the DSA's! ;D
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Feel free to take a survey, and we'd be glad to start a "We hat Badgersmilk because ..." thread ;D
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You say that like it's a bad thing.
Feel free to take a survey, and we'd be glad to start a "We hat Badgersmilk because ..." thread ;D
Or better yet, a "Damn Badger, you really do to need to clear out that rat's nest, let me help" thread. ;D
FQ13
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Or better yet, a "Damn Badger, you really do to need to clear out that rat's nest, let me help" thread. ;D
FQ13
I hate to say it, but I like FQ's idea better.
Let it be known that I will gladly provide a good home with plenty of Hoppe's 9 to any unwanted firearms ;D
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Here soon I do need to get some photo's of everything, if just for insurance purposes. And maybe to show a few local dealers to. ;)
If I do thin the herd I'm pretty sure it'll be an "All for one price" kinda thing. If it came to individual sales I'd talk myself out of it everytime and never get rid of any of them!
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I want all three of these. You are on the same track I am. I would love a .308 battle rifle.
My vote will go to the Rock River, with the FAL in a very close second.
Either way you cant lose. And Honestly if for some reason the FAL came cheaper or with one more advantage that I would want on the rifle that I could get on the RRA I would get FAL. It is basically a tie. I just like the AR platform and Ergonomics.
I believe RRA makes a mid-length (M4) size LAR-8. Thats the one I would go for. But if you are going to be a sharp shooter or sniper for your team I would take the full size one.
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Here soon I do need to get some photo's of everything, if just for insurance purposes. And maybe to show a few local dealers to. ;)
If I do thin the herd I'm pretty sure it'll be an "All for one price" kinda thing. If it came to individual sales I'd talk myself out of it everytime and never get rid of any of them!
Semi off topic, but BM this is a great place to sell. I've sold several guns here without hick-up. No bounced checks, no late payments and nobody taking advantage of my money back guarantee out of buyer's remorse. I've just found a lot of honest and well informed folks who know the difference between 80% and 95% and are willing to pay accordingly, and be happy if you delivered what you promised. If you want to "thin the herd" I'd sure as hell start here rather than gunbroker.com. Its one of the reasons I like this site. I may not agree with everyone politically, but I would do business on a handshake with all of them.
FQ13
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I went through this decision a year or two ago, and ended going the DSA FAL route. Maybe a bit old school, maybe a bit heavy, maybe not as accurate, but I swayed to (my perception) old school and reliability, and it probably shoots better than I ever will. I'm happy. And I saw a LaRue Tactical box at my mother-in-law's yesterday (I've been a good boy, mostly, and had an M4 Aimpoint on my Christmas list!) :)
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I went through this decision a year or two ago, and ended going the DSA FAL route. Maybe a bit old school, maybe a bit heavy, maybe not as accurate, but I swayed to (my perception) old school and reliability, and it probably shoots better than I ever will. I'm happy. And I saw a LaRue Tactical box at my mother-in-law's yesterday (I've been a good boy, mostly, and had an M4 Aimpoint on my Christmas list!) :)
Reliability and good enough, coupled with cheap mags and easy cleaning are what you want in a battle rifle. How many 500 yard plus targets are you going to see? Could you really hit them if you had to under field conditions? For most of us, the answer is a deafening silence. The FAL is a classic for a reason.
FQ13 who would very much like to own one
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I would love to own a Rock River or the DPMS LR-AP4. FAL's are very expensive and if I had the money I would own one myself. But the Rock River or DPMS is more attainable and affordable along with the accessories.
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I'm looking at acquiring a 7.62 rifle and am considering three different variants; an FAL from DSA, Rock River LAR8 or DPMS Panther LR-AP4.
So, what did you get?
I love my FAL..but I have a RRA LAR-8 Varmint on order and it can share mags. I looked hard at the Armalite and I really like it but....for the $$$$'s difference I plan to use the savings to put good glass on the RRA. Methinks the $$$'s spent on glass will likely have a better bang for the buck when it comes to accuracy and target acquisition. Concerning what's best among like models of interesting guns, it's the specific reliability and quality between models you can research and have a say in whether you buy or not.
I am in the camp that says picking a gun up out of a box is the luck of the draw when it comes to accuracy. There are a few things you can do to help yourself buy an accuracy "class" like stiff barrels, good triggers, etc...but when it comes down to it....when all the parts are put together how will that "system" work together to produce a standard of accuracy.
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I have both the Imbel FAL and the Armalite AR-10B. A friend has the LAR-8 and really likes it, although I have never shot it. I love the Imbel, but if I had to do it again I would get a DSA.
Oh, and CProducts is making SR-25 magazines which will work in the DPMS. Armalite recently had a sale on their magazines at $23 each.
-Bidah
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I had an AR-10 on order for the better part of a year last year...and then Lash closed his store due to health and so went the order. It is good to hear Armalite is not squeezing people on mag prices any more...at least that was my take. So when I got back on the .308 AR semi-auto platform bug I moved over to the LAR-8 in varmint model.
How does your friend like it?
By the way, how've you been Bidah?
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LaRue has a new AR-style rifle in .308 - the OBR (Optimzed Battle Rifle). It takes the SR-25 style magazines. Looks like one heck of a rifle if you have an extra kidney to sell... ;)
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Apologies Rastus I missed your post. He really likes his LAR-8, although he says that it likes some FAL magazines better than others. Heck, even my FAL likes some better than others :)
As for me, I was really busy at the end of the year (only home 8 days October through December), and then nothing so far since the beginning of January. At least I have had time to shoot and tweak my cold weather gear. :D
-Bidah
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I have a Rock River LAR8 with two extra FAL 20 round mags. I paid $12.00 each at a gun show. They look to be made just like the original new one from RR only a little more scuffed up. They work perfectly.
The kick is more of a push than a jolt. I would compare it to a 12 Ga automatic shotgun with dove loads.
My only complaint is that it is a heavy gun. It sights easy but would be a load with a scope and full mag to carry around on a hunt all day. I have the Eotec L3 sight and love the both eyes open effect. I have my eye on a magnifyer that I saw on line comes in 3X, 5X, and 7X but have not made up my mind which one.
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My only complaint is that it is a heavy gun. It sights easy but would be a load with a scope and full mag to carry around on a hunt all day.
Oh c'mon DeltaM, just MAN UP!! I hunt all over the mountains here in Montana with the AR-10B heavy barrel. :) Just get out and practice more..
Sorry, I just could not resist. Surprisingly my AR-10 weighs more than my FAL.. not much, but it does.
-Bidah
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Oh c'mon DeltaM, just MAN UP!! I hunt all over the mountains here in Montana with the AR-10B heavy barrel. :) Just get out and practice more..
Sorry, I just could not resist. Surprisingly my AR-10 weighs more than my FAL.. not much, but it does.
-Bidah
Been there done that but it was 50+ years ago. Age makes you smart enough not to waste your body ;)
One other point about the LAR8. It has the best single action trigger pull of any rifle I have ever owned. That feature alone makes it worth toting around.