The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: GlockMeister on December 05, 2007, 11:17:15 PM
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Well fellow shooting enthusiasts. The anti-gunners will have yet more ammo (no pun intended) yet again from this latest tragedy. This time the irresponsible,cowardly, obviously non-law-abiding individual used what they're saying was an SKS. Now I suppose the C&R's will be up for debate by the anti-gunners?
Apparently he was 20 yrs. old and had just lost his job and girlfriend. UNREAL!!! They never have the nerve to stay around and take their punishment. They always seem to be cowards and not only take innocent lives, but like the cowards they are, take their own.
My heart goes out along with condolences to all the families, loved ones and friends of those whose lives have been affected by this senseless tragedy.
GlockMeister
The media is already having a field day with it.
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I heard on NPR (gospel truth to the "other side") that the kid used an "assault rifle" that was semi-automatic. In fairness they did also report that he was very troubled- kicked out of his home by his folks (wonder why?) living with parents of friends, lost the girlfriend, lost his job at McDonalds... ok...are we getting the picture?
Sounds like the guy is a bit of a losing proposition OR just a lost kid. Either way, a defective unit. These things happen.
If firearms weren't available to him he might have gone the fertilizer and fuel route, my point being that when defective units malfunction, they'll find a way to malfunction.
If we (the whole country) spent more time and money helping our disadvantaged bretheren instead of having to fight to protect our constitutional rights, we'd all be better off.
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I was very sadden to hear about this... even worse that less then a hour afterwards I was on a forum and had some one calling for a all out assult gun ban... Which I found very intresting as the links they used said this young man was a convicted felon and had several misdemeaners a waiting trial. After I pointed out that legally he was not even aloud to own a gun, I got the old "thats why we need to ban them"
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I am on the ground in Omaha. We are efforting to get a pic of the "mall rules" which prohibit firearms. In this state, according to the State Patrol, that is enough to ban CCW.
When I get this data, it will be up on joemerchant24.blogspot.com
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A correction and or follow up. The "Media" is now saying it was an AK-47 that was used. from what is also being released, this person, UNDER THE ALREADY CURRENT LAWS, SHOULD NOT HAVE OWNED A GUN. From what I'm understanding , he probably didn't legally own it!
No matter what was used, it is truly tragic!
GlockMeister
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I am on the ground in Omaha. We are efforting to get a pic of the "mall rules" which prohibit firearms. In this state, according to the State Patrol, that is enough to ban CCW.
When I get this data, it will be up on joemerchant24.blogspot.com
Maybe had someone been CCW, could have stopped this well in advance of the innocent 8 deaths? Obviously the 9th death is that of the shooter. Given his obvious current mental status had he just killed himself, it may or may not in itself been enough to make national even world headlines and surely wouldn't have gotten the current media attention this is getting!
GlockMeister
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"If we (the whole country) spent more time and money helping our disadvantaged bretheren instead of having to fight to protect our constitutional rights, we'd all be better off."
I need a little explaination of this statement. If I would have taken my NRA dues and given them to Save the Children this wouldn't have happened?
Jaybethel, I too believe in charity but I'm not seeing the linkage here.
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MSNBC just had an "EXPERT" on telling America what to do in case they are involved in a mall shooting. Who can guess if "Drawing your legally licensed firearm and fighting back" was included? Run, hide in the restroom, etc were his recommendations. From what I gather from joemerchant24...Mall rules forbid guns in the mall so I think they should arrest the shooter and put him in jail. Woooops. Oh yea, if I'm involved in a mall shooting the police will be there to save me (don't mean to offend those LEO's who are with us).
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"If we (the whole country) spent more time and money helping our disadvantaged bretheren instead of having to fight to protect our constitutional rights, we'd all be better off."
I need a little explaination of this statement. If I would have taken my NRA dues and given them to Save the Children this wouldn't have happened?
Jaybethel, I too believe in charity but I'm not seeing the linkage here.
Not talking about charity...more about priorities. Liberals tend to villify someone for hunting, even though in the long run it is better for the animal populations involved. They would rather ban firearms than take responsibility for the fact that their touchy-feely bullcrap didn't even notice that this kid needed help. BOTH SIDES of the second amendment fight spend way too much time, money, and effort fighting the fight because the liberals are lazy. Fixing the mental health care system or improving it would take a real effort, which they really don't want to expend. It's a lot easier to sit back and screech out a bunch of anti-gun slogans- they don't even have to do their homework.
I have NO problem with any effort or funds expended to protect our constitutional rights, and unfortunately it is completely necessary to have to do so. I just feel that it shouldn't even BE necessary to do so. All that effort and treasure could be put to better use if people's priorities were better.
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Early reports indicate the Omaha Mall shooter was a screwed up 19 year old. He had been “kicked out” by his parents, so a well intentioned, but naive (read liberal) mother of a friend gave him shelter, so she could “help” him. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve dealt with similar situations, which almost always end in tragedy, although usually not on such a grand scale.
The weapon is being reported as an “AK47,” but we shall see what it actually turns out to be. The rifle was stolen from his step-father (the same one who kicked him out?), which is another argument for every gun owner having a gun safe. At least the chief didn't call it an "assault weapon." Yet.
The kid was a loser, with a drug and alcohol problem, who’s parents had given up on him. He is a school drop-out who couldn’t maintain a job or personal relationships. The Omaha police chief said it also appears the mall was chosen because it's a large public place where he'd get a lot of attention. In one of his notes, he wrote, “I'm a piece of shit and now I'm going to be famous.”
As we learn more, the media will eventually come around to focusing on the evil gun, and renew the clarion call for more gun “control.” The Second Amendment will no doubt come under renewed attack, but given the fact that this punk shot up the mall in order to become famous, like Klebold & Harris, I wonder if the First Amendment free press clause come under attack too? Somehow I don’t think so.
I wonder if Westroads Mall is a gun free zone?
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Listened to Paul Harvey News this noon, can't remember who the guest is today, and he brought up some interesting facts:
1. Young man was kicked out of home by parents;
2. Foster parents saw hope and took him in;
3. Unknown what happened, but couldn't keep his McDonald's job - was FIRED;
4. Girl friend broke up with him;
5. Up on felony charges for drug issues;
6. He showed his foster mother the gun the night before, and she never questioned how he could purchase/obtain/posses it based on legal issues in his life;
7. Foster parents never reported weapon to authorities (isn't that part of their responsibility as foster parents);
8. Left note behind saying he wanted to be famous.
I know this is a tragedy, I wish it didn't happen, I feel for all involved, but I am talking on the gun debate side at this point. At least one gun law that would have stopped this was broken by the shooter and ignored by the foster parents. I know we spend a lot on protecting our rights, but I for one give and spend a lot on helping people as well. Why can't the Government and anti's redirect their spending from taking away everyone's rights and redirect it toward enforcement and treatment of people like this.
Word last night and a couple of outlets this morning was that the gun was an SKS. I know that the media likes the fear factor of AK and the ever popular Assult, but until further notice I think I'll go with the LE spokesman that identified it as SKS. Kinda like the DC sniper a while back when the media was screaming assult weapon after the FBI identified it as a .22-250. I've never seen a regular production assult weapon chambered in .22-250, but it would not have scared us as much to say it was a target or hunting rifle - Sniper and assult are so much scarier ...
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Jaybethal,
OK Thanks for the explaination.
Ratcatcher 55
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Updates from the ground:
Chief Warren has repeatedly called it an assault rifle... from the time he thought it was an SKS to today's revalation of an AK-type rifle (AK47s are full auto, after all.
CNN wins, though, by calling it an "AK47 that was loaded with SKS 7.66 mm ammo"
There is a bit is disagreement, but I have seen the "no guns" part of the rules of conduct. There is a link to a newspaper article on my blog (and Waronguns.com and johnrlott.blogspot.com) that specifically lists Westroads as posted. A Freedom Fiend from my blog visited the site and said the conduct sign, as far as could tell, has been taken down.
I will be visiting another mall tonight, owned by the same management group, to see if their conduct sign is still in place.
There was a person on the 3rd floor when it started who has done everything for his CCW but apply. He said he hasn't because "There are so many posted places its about worthless." I will have his story in detail up on my blog as soon as it is ready.
I have asked the mall management firm, as well as the security firm, for a copy of the mall rules of conduct. SIlence.
Finally, I have "tipped" my former colleagues at two newspapers to look for the sign (and get a photo) as well as the fact that the sign may have been taken down.
More when I have it....
JoeMerchant24
joemerchant24.blogspot.com
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Friend of mine from Omaha emailed me about this, West Roads is indeed a gun free zone... Not even mall security has weapons...
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Very little armed security in Omaha. Open carry, legal in all the state, requires an open carry permit that's $150-$180 to get.
I can only think of armed security at Borsheim's, which is Warren Buffett's high-end jewelry store.
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Nebraska doesn't have quite a legal through out the state law, towns can override state law and still enact CCW bans (about a dozen towns the last I looked, including my county seat which I have to pass through to basically go anywhere..... Hope the unicamerial get's it right this year and strikes down that portion of the bill...
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Updates from the ground:
Chief Warren has repeatedly called it an assault rifle... from the time he thought it was an SKS to today's revalation of an AK-type rifle (AK47s are full auto, after all.
CNN wins, though, by calling it an "AK47 that was loaded with SKS 7.66 mm ammo"
There is a bit is disagreement, but I have seen the "no guns" part of the rules of conduct. There is a link to a newspaper article on my blog (and Waronguns.com and johnrlott.blogspot.com) that specifically lists Westroads as posted. A Freedom Fiend from my blog visited the site and said the conduct sign, as far as could tell, has been taken down.
I will be visiting another mall tonight, owned by the same management group, to see if their conduct sign is still in place.
There was a person on the 3rd floor when it started who has done everything for his CCW but apply. He said he hasn't because "There are so many posted places its about worthless." I will have his story in detail up on my blog as soon as it is ready.
I have asked the mall management firm, as well as the security firm, for a copy of the mall rules of conduct. SIlence.
Finally, I have "tipped" my former colleagues at two newspapers to look for the sign (and get a photo) as well as the fact that the sign may have been taken down.
More when I have it....
JoeMerchant24
joemerchant24.blogspot.com
Um, correct me if I'm wrong but they both take the same ammo there Joe. 7.62X39. At least the SKS 59/66 takes that. So does the AK-47. Either way crap like this does not help a gun owners situation/s in this day and time. The anti-gunners and the media and the politicians are already running away with it. Anyhow, I'll leave the rest of what I have to say in my own reply to add to what I initially started. But had to point out they both, at least the 2 (1 of each) I have both use 7.62X39...
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Personally, I think this is a good opportunity to sue the heck out of the Mall - class action suit for reckless endangerment, or maybe criminal negligence for forbidding what is allowed by state law. Until these mopes are held accountable, nothing will change.
Anyone know if the law in NE supports this?
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Heard a interesting statement today from a local radio talk show host. He made the comment (one I had niether heard, or thought of) That the reason there are more shooting like this today than in the past is because the population is so much greater than it was 75 or even 50 years ago. If you have a certain percentage of the population that is nuts, then you will more nuts. I had never thought about it that way, and it kinda makes sense. This host is niether openly pro or anti gun. Thoughts anyone?
Cookie
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Pathfinder, they are all scared of Ernie Chambers the only black representative in the Unicameral, remember he sued God earlier this year to stop all the natural diasters, and later decided that Tom Osborne, are legendiarny football coach and now athletic director was God, he will be finally term-limited out after this session.....
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Heard a interesting statement today from a local radio talk show host. He made the comment (one I had niether heard, or thought of) That the reason there are more shooting like this today than in the past is because the population is so much greater than it was 75 or even 50 years ago. If you have a certain percentage of the population that is nuts, then you will more nuts. I had never thought about it that way, and it kinda makes sense. This host is niether openly pro or anti gun. Thoughts anyone?
Cookie
Cookie, that radio doofus is full of it. Statistically, he may have a point, a very small one. The real reasons include the destruction of values, respect for others we disagree with, having "alternative" lifestyles crammed down our throats and ordered to "celebrate" them, trashing of everything that made this country great, and other related activities of our nations teachers union and other assorted liberal types.
Growing up, we had the local gun club's .22 rifles leaning up against the wall, and we all knew for a certainty that death and destruction would be meted out to us if we so much as touched them without a parent around and approving. My friends and I obeyed and no one would even think about taking one to school or the local stores and shoot people. We were taught morals and that our place was to learn, not to be special, and unique and important at the age of 16, as they are today.
Of course, we were also much better prepared to deal with the negatives of life than kids today are. Lose your job (at McDonald's!) and get dumped by your girlfriend? No problem, go shoot up a mall.
But then of course, it's the gun's fault.
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Um, correct me if I'm wrong but they both take the same ammo there Joe. 7.62X39. At least the SKS 59/66 takes that. So does the AK-47. Either way crap like this does not help a gun owners situation/s in this day and time. The anti-gunners and the media and the politicians are already running away with it. Anyhow, I'll leave the rest of what I have to say in my own reply to add to what I initially started. But had to point out they both, at least the 2 (1 of each) I have both use 7.62X39...
Yes, Glockmeister, I feed both my Yugo SKS and Romy AK the from the same can as well.
My point in sharing that is to show the cluelessness of CNN (who has paid fact checkers on staff). The way it was written, "SKS 7.66 mm " was the name of the ammo (Like .40 S&W). I waiting for the Paul Who Shall Not Be Named to push for a ban on all ammo made by SKS, cause it's as deadly as Black Talon was!!
I spent almost a decade in journalism, and I had countless pretty-haired people from TV (one case in particular was CNN) where a producer wanted to "take it outside" when I said they ran with stuff on-air long before they bothered to check it out.
I rest my case.
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The First Amendment Must Be Repealed!
Of course I’m not serious, but maybe I can explain the origin of that Brady-esque outburst.
I place much of the blame for Wednesday’s shooting at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Nebraska squarely on the shoulders of the media. Yes, the media. After the April 16 massacre at Virginia Tech, most media outlets took a deranged mass murder’s press kit and published it. That may actually be too kind. They exploited it for every bit of sensationalistic attention they could get. They took an unknown murderer and gave him an international pulpit from which to spew his hatred, even after his cowardly self inflicted death.
I wrote to various media outlets after the Virginia Tech incident and said, “Your ill-advised decision has validated his actions, and will likely motivate other deluded individuals to commit similar atrocities because they know that they will be immortalized by media outlets that seem to be more concerned with ratings and scooping their rivals than with journalistic integrity.” Well, the latest mass murdering criminal was watching the news and was inspired. He wrote in his suicide note, "I'm a piece of shit but I'm going to be famous now."
Now, to be clear, I am NOT calling for limits on free speech or limits on the First Amendment. I AM calling for journalists to exercise professionalism, ethics, and responsibility. To report on these tragedies requires reporting some facts. A murderer’s manifesto is evidence for the police and FBI to study and analyze. It is not material that should lead the nightly news. Do not give these psychopaths the attention they seek.
You know what should be reported? The fact that the mall was ANOTHER “gun free” zone. When will people wake up to the fact that these are killing zones where good people are made to be defenseless. No coincidence that cowardly scumbags choose “gun free” zones to do their evil. These zone need to be eliminated right away.
These incidents aren’t really even about guns. The Westroads Mall shooter apparently stole his gun. And I really don’t want to hear the argument that “if all guns were banned than people like that couldn’t get them” because this year in Detroit a police officer had his select-file 9mm carbine stolen (one of the few guns that could actually fit the “assault rifle” definition out of the back seat of his unmarked car at a Tiger’s game). News Flash - criminals STEAL things.
Evil people will do evil things. What we can do is stop them, and certainly not reward them.
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I agree with you Force Quit but to expect "professionalism, ethics and responsibility from most media people is too much to ask of them. They use the words but don't seem to know what they mean or they mean something different to them. We all know and understand this but keep calling for it anyway. We have about as much of a chance of making that happen as we do of changing HC mind about gun control. No, I don't have answers either...If I did the media wouldn't listen to them anyway!
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Wanna talk ethics?
The Omaha PD just gave out three surveillance camera stills.
1) The gremiin entering the store for his recon sweep
2) The gremlin entering the store again with something under his sweatshirt
3) The gremlin stepping of the elevator on floor three with AK up, sights aligned and trigger pressed.
KETV (ABC) and KPTM (Fox) have decided to show the first two. They have a statement describing the third pic, but decided not to show it. WOWT (NBC) and KMTV (CBS) haven't update the ir Web site, yet.
The Omaha World-Herald and the Lincoln Journal Star led their Web site with photo number three
My editorial decision on the pics can be found at http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com, but the short version is F*** that dirtbag. I'm not using ANY pics, nor using his name again.
What cheeses me off (trying to stay clean) is that the firestorm over who used what picture will get more media space than the damn gun-free zone at the mall.
OK, I need to go get lunch and something non-flammable to drink.
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Why do they always do it in a school or mall and not a NRA meeting?
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I'd like to say it is because they are smart enough to know which setting would give them the best option of finishing it on their own terms. However, it is most likely because they are going to the places they know the best, or where they felt bullied or left out.
This whole thing had me practicing my concealed draw again. Long ago I learned that to maintain mediocrity I need to do it three times a week, to improve I need five times a week, and to be the best it is everyday. I don't need to be the absolute best, but I do need to practice more than once or twice a week just to remember how to be comfortable and not obvious about rubbing the gun through my coat.
I love my 1911 in a bianchi leather, but all my jackets are too short. I works great under my suit and sport coats, but the pretty stainless muzzle hangs an inch below my favorite NRA leather. When watching Personal Defense TV, I notice that Tom and Masad love to wear their vests. Does anyone really run around town in those tactical vests?
Back on topic ... Minnesota is a "shall issue" State. Along with that schools, law enforcement, governmental building, etc. are no carry places period. However, as a part of the law that allows people to post their business or property as no guns, it is not illegal to carry there. If they find you are carrying they can ask you to leave, and then you must. But, if they don't ask you to leave your ok. Since the main part of this part of the law is "concealed" it should be no problem unless you find yourself in a situation like Omaha. Minnesota's castle docterine also says that you no longer need to flee your property or where you are. You are free to defend yourself (you still can't run through the mall trying to hunt the guy down). I smile every time I walk through the doors of the Mall of America, right past the NO GUNS!!! sign with a locked and loaded 1911 and two extra ten round mags (probably would never need them in a fight, but hey, their small and fit easy in the pocket).
MALL SHOPPING HINT: If you want really good service in a men's store (sorry guys - I'm talking clothing not guns and ammo this time ... and unfortunately no brass poles either) carry your gun when shopping for a suit. When the salesman gets ready to help you out of your coat and into one of theirs, turn and whisper (remember that concealed means secret) that you are carrying. After the initial gasp you tell them you always do, and you needed to in their store to be sure the suit fit. You will end up with either the owner or the top manager working with you, usually one of the "senior" tailors, and in a nice private fitting area instead of the middle of the sales floor. I have never needed to go back for a refitting on a suit that was tailored when I was fitted with a carry gun. The down side of this is that I no longer buy my suits in our local small towns. I don't want every shop owner in town knowing that I carry. Remember, if something goes bad when you are in a place you don't want someone blurting out that you need to draw or something dumb like that, and in our towns of 1500 down here it could happen.
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...but the pretty stainless muzzle hangs an inch below my favorite NRA leather.
You should consider getting an IWB holster. When I shot IDPA in local matches there was more than 1 guy doing so with a full size 1911. I carried a CZ RAMI in 9mm (3in barrel) that way for a about year.
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You should consider getting an IWB holster. When I shot IDPA in local matches there was more than 1 guy doing so with a full size 1911. I carried a CZ RAMI in 9mm (3in barrel) that way for a about year.
I've been carrying a full size 1911 in a Milt Sparks Summer Special II IWB holster and am simply amazed at how comfortable it is to carry. I am waiting for a Milt Sparks Versa Max II to arrive as that model holster has wider straps that spreads the weight across the belt and is supposed to be even more comfortable. It's really a wonderful way to carry a full size gun as all you need is a tee shirt to cover the top and you're good to go. The trick is finding that sweet spot along your hip, say between 3:30 and 5 o'clock that works for your body type, and of course a good gun belt. For me, 3:30 is perfectly comfortable and I can wear a government size 1911 all day long, even when driving. I agree with Don, definitely give IWB carry a try, but the right holster is of paramount importance IMHO. I would highly recommend Milt Sparks, and you can try a Summer Special II without the current 26 week wait as Brownells always has them in stock for $77, the same price that Milt Sparks sells them for.
Here's the link to the holster if you are interested....... http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=9922&st=Milt%20Sparks&s=
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You should consider getting an IWB holster. When I shot IDPA in local matches there was more than 1 guy doing so with a full size 1911. I carried a CZ RAMI in 9mm (3in barrel) that way for a about year.
Hey DonWorsham! I've been flirting with the CZ Rami for a little while. How do you like yours? Does it operate like a 1911 or is there a "decocking" mechanism of some kind to leave you that first double action shot? I'm thinking of getting a really small carry piece for my out-of-state trips (out of New Jerksey that is) and the Rami looks nice, but maybe a little bigger than I'd like. Iwas thinking of something the size of the Taurus Millennium Pro or one of the Kahrs,which seem pretty expensive.
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Iv'e been carrying a glock 26 in a Gould & goodrich IWB for about 3 years now and love it. Once you find the sweet spot behind the hip you almost foger it there.
http://www.gouldusa.com/catalog/showModel.php?modelID=89&line=Gold+Line
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