The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Ulmus on June 01, 2010, 07:02:40 PM

Title: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Ulmus on June 01, 2010, 07:02:40 PM
I saw this on another website and had to steal it.  (Props to COSteve from Paco Kelly's Leverguns.com for this)

Suppose you own 2ea .357mag Rossi leverguns (20" carbine and 24" oct bbl rifle), a 30 Carbine, and 2ea ARs (14.7" pencil barrel middy and a 20" A4). Of the 5 options, say we limit your choices to only the 3 carbine versions configured as shown below. All three weight about 6 lbs, all three carry 12 rds or more, and all three have iron sights and no other aids (lights, lazers, etc.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Coloradoglocker/100_0651.jpg)

Assume:
A) you reload so you can tailor your ammo to your choice
B) your state has laws allow for deadly force inside your home so any of the 3 are legal options
C) you have a std style and size home in a normal neighborhood.

Given these three, and only these three, which would you pick for your HD choice and why would you choose that one?

Since it was posted on a Lever action rifle forum, there was an obvious bias there.  Let's see what happens here.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: garand4life on June 01, 2010, 07:16:05 PM
I'm going to go AR in .223. Thanks to Rob demonstrating the penetration tests on The Best Defense, I would trust using the .223 caliber Hornady TAP or other specialized ammo in doors more than any pistol caliber. Add to that no recoil, light weight and easy to use. All three are good choices but in my own personal experience I like the AR. Especially with an EoTech on top for easy close in aiming to ensure that the shots are delivered on target. Plus M1 carbine ammo is not quite up to date in terms of modern self defense loadings like the more common .223. It's getting there though! And I would hesitate to shoot a .357 magnum in doors for any reason.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Timothy on June 01, 2010, 07:33:55 PM
I'll go with the lever gun.

The recoil is minor in .357, it has a great history of stopping power and I can shoot it all day, every day with a light cleaning and lube.  Nothing against the others but I'd go with what I'm comfy with and gas systems require more maintenance.

A normal neighborhood where I live is several hundred feet to the next house.  I'm not any more worried about overpenetration than with a handgun in the same caliber which sits next to my bed as I sleep.  Besides, I can shoot .38's in the house and full loads outdoors.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: twyacht on June 01, 2010, 08:06:32 PM
If an AR platform is an option, there are some sweeeeeeet ones with 8.5 inch to 10.5 inch available. Loaded with Hornady TAP ammo, halfway through a 30rd. mag, if I'm still having to fire, I will be transitioning to a bigger firearm.

CQB, geez, what about the "zombie count"? ::),....if I haven't ended the threat, I need more firepower, and than a 12g, or AK, is employed.

That many rounds, think about it, if I am still firing, I need more firepower. The "leetle" AR's would be the ticket.

(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/007.jpg)

Leelte DPMS, that would be dandy...
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Big Frank on June 01, 2010, 08:23:09 PM
If they made better SD ammo like gold dots for the M1 I think that would be my choice. Since they don't make SD ammo for it I'd choose the AR with frangible bullets. House to house distance to my neighbor is a measly 16 feet.  :o  Overpenetration with all 3 guns would be a problem.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: TAB on June 01, 2010, 11:22:15 PM
M1, it just feels good in my hand.  not to mention there is less of a chance some one could pull one of those evil black rifle deals in court.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: fightingquaker13 on June 01, 2010, 11:38:41 PM
I would not choose the lever gun. Three reasons. 1) Cocking it is one more thing to think about in a high stress situation. 2) They do sometimes fail to feed cleanly and it takes longer to clear than just racking the charging handle back. 3) Its got fewer rounds and a slower rate of fire. If things are bad enough you're using a rifle, more and faster is better. Personally, I live in a zero lot line development. I can practically lean out my window and hand my neighbors a drink. I'd first choose a 9mm or a shotgun. Still, if I had to choose, I would use the AR.
YMMV
FQ13
PS +1 on the Eotech, both eyes open using the 6 minute circle. Its like ghost rings on a shotgun. Good enough.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 02, 2010, 02:06:21 AM
In a standard frame house I would go with a shotgun and shot, since that is not one of the options I would go with the lever gun and load 38's.
All of them will get the job done, that is the least likely to over penetrate and kill one of your neighbors.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: mtpockets on June 02, 2010, 03:32:34 PM
I would go with the 14.7 midlength with some type of frangible ammo.  It's short, ergonomic, and has a high capacity.

Have to ask why no shotgun?
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Ulmus on June 02, 2010, 07:45:39 PM
I'm guessing there was no shotgun option because it was on a rifle forum  ???

As for me, well, I just plain forgot.  :-[  (I could fib and say it's because the shotty doesn't have a 12 round capacity like the others.)

My choice is the .357 lever action because except for my HiPoint, all my rifles are lever action and I have programmed myself to that type of rifle.  I can also use Glasser frangible ammo and not worry about over penetration.  Plus, like Mike said, a lever action looks a lot less menacing than the AR-15 to the uninformed called to judge my case if it got that far.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: GUNS-R-US on June 03, 2010, 11:48:43 PM
The Lever gun would look better in court, but I'd go with the AR with TAP ammo for sure! More ammo less over penetration. Just watch out for the muzzle blast it will be significant!! :o ;D If you can get a suppressor, noise would be better with it.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: fightingquaker13 on June 03, 2010, 11:59:53 PM
I don't think noise will matter. I probably won't hear it. The neighbors will and call the cops. That's true with any of the above choices.
FQ13
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: GUNS-R-US on June 04, 2010, 12:11:38 AM
I don't think noise will matter. I probably won't hear it. The neighbors will and call the cops. That's true with any of the above choices.
FQ13

FQ you might not think you'll hear it, but it will still cause serious hearing damage that you cannot get back. If you fire a rifle indoors with out hearing protection. As most of are not going to have time to put any a on any earplugs, I'd have a suppressor. I can't have one in Washington, or at least it's illegal to use one in this state, so I don't use a rifle for home protection. :P
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: MAUSERMAN on June 04, 2010, 12:56:09 AM
I would have to go with lever gun also. The main reason i live in commiefornia and black rifles just dont make legal sense out here. Second if i were to run the gun dry i can always beat the living shit out of an intruder with it. Try doing that with a M4 sytle adjustable stock.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Walter45Auto on June 04, 2010, 02:42:53 AM
I'd get the .357 Lever action for home defense. (And I even have reasons besides the fact that I've been wanting one anyway. ;D ) Hollow point ammo is MUCH easier to find for .357 Mag than the .30 Carbine, and it'll give more punch at HD distances than the 5.56/.223.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 04, 2010, 10:30:32 AM
Also with the lever gun you can top up the mag with out opening the bolt, removing a mag or otherwise disabling the action.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Ping on June 04, 2010, 02:23:26 PM
DPMS AR with a 16 inch barrel with Hornady TAP. That is what I use for HD.  8)
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Timothy on June 04, 2010, 02:44:52 PM
Also with the lever gun you can top up the mag with out opening the bolt, removing a mag or otherwise disabling the action.

And you carry a few hundred rounds in your pockets.

 ;)
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: bryand71 on June 04, 2010, 07:10:42 PM
I can't choose the Lever since I don't own one, I do have a AR and an M1. I even have 20 rds of 30Carbine tracer!  :o  I would probably just use the AR, since I have more ammo and I am more familar with using it under stress.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 04, 2010, 07:50:26 PM
I can't choose the Lever since I don't own one, I do have a AR and an M1. I even have 20 rds of 30Carbine tracer!  :o  I would probably just use the AR, since I have more ammo and I am more familar with using it under stress.

I'd stay away from the stuff that can burn the house down  ;D
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: m25operator on June 04, 2010, 07:59:11 PM
I too would go with the AR and do, sits right next to the bed, with the aimpoint on, at 1/2 intensity, also has backup weapon light.

The 5.56 is quite safe in the home, I have a small hole on the inside of my garage wall and a big 1 one the other side at the porch wall, gypsum wall plus 1/4" fir down with vinyl covering, the opposite wall, about 4', has only speckles in the vinyl around the porch lamp, glass was not broken. This was PMC bronze, 55gr fmj. Don't know how it got there. The 5.56 won't over penetrate, but neither will your choice of the .357 glaser safety slug, don't know how well it work in a lever gun, and as that is your choice, you can rubber band a good rear pressure switch flashlight to the forend, hell even duct tape it and it will work without buying rails, or blocking the sights. ( Rails are available you know )















Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Bill Stryker on June 04, 2010, 08:15:02 PM
I like the M1 Carbine as I have written here before. The M2 version served me well in combat. So, I am familiar with the M1. I kept the M1 as my bedroom gun for more than 40 years!

I don't know what got into me a couple of years ago. I bought a RockRiver carbine that now hangs from a peg in the BR closet with 26 rounds of SP varmint ammo from Hornady.

But either will do the job. I doubt I would grab any carbine first though. I like my P226 with Crimson Trace grips right now.

I think dogs are a better deterrent. We have two that sleep upstairs on watch. Sure they are setters, but the Gordon is big and has a loud bark. She also can be protective according to a police officer that answered an alarm while we were out. The police officer would not go in until we got there. Apparently the perp wouldn't go in either if there actually was one.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: m25operator on June 04, 2010, 08:20:35 PM
The .30 carbine is a natural pointer and I like it, good mag capacity, just wish the ammo manufacturers would bring it into the 21s't century, a Tap, or XTP bullet would be perfect, I talked to Corbon about it in the early 90's and they said they were working on it, but I personally have never seen it. If such ammo was available, I would probably buy another one on purpose. Speer had the 100grn Plinkers, which did expand, but were not very reliable.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: GUNS-R-US on June 04, 2010, 11:05:56 PM
it'll give more punch at HD distances than the 5.56/.223.

Walter,
I have to say bull on that! 5.56 has twice the power and a lot less penetration that the .357 or .38!


Hornady Tap .55gr 5.56

  MUZZLE               100       200      300      400      500
3240/1282    2854/995   2500/763   2172/576   1871/427   1598/312

Federal 110gr 30 Carbine

Velocity 100 Y 200 Y 300 Y 400 Y 500 Y
1990     1564  1231  1031   919   839
Energy  100 Y 200 Y 300 Y 400 Y 500 Y
967       597    370    260   206    172

Hornady Critical Defense 125gr .357 Mag

 MUZZLE       50               100
1500/624   1301/470   1147/365
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: bryand71 on June 04, 2010, 11:10:05 PM
the only advantage the .30 Carbine and the .38/357 have over the 5.56 is bullet weight. More mass in an object is always good for doing damage. Not that it is always better.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: TAB on June 07, 2010, 12:49:44 AM
Also with the lever gun you can top up the mag with out opening the bolt, removing a mag or otherwise disabling the action.

thats going to depend on th emodel
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: SIG229DAK on June 07, 2010, 01:31:20 AM
Well,

Given those choices listed, I'd use the Puma .357mag that I use in CAS matches.   Fast, accurate as hell and loaded with ten .357mag Gold Dots, no BG would be left standing.

Me and the wife are the only ones in our 2 story house, single story houses on either side.   No real worries of over-penetration here.
Title: Re: Best for HD: .357 Lever Action, 30 Carbine, or AR-15?
Post by: Combat Diver on June 07, 2010, 01:02:36 PM
I actually own all three of those so, I'm familiar with them (except my Marlin is in .41 Mag).  However, for HD my frist garb would be the AR as I've got over 26+ yrs experience with them and with many years in both Iraq and Astan.  My M4ergy has a Aimpoint and a Surefire light on it next to the bed but comfortable with it being slick as I've know my come ups to 500yds with the loaded Mk 262 77gr BTHP.  I've also been thru several CQB course with it and one was 2 months long.

(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/5th_Divers.jpg)