The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: Magoo541 on July 16, 2012, 10:41:14 PM
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When working up a load only load a FEW rounds and test. DO NOT load up 150 rounds if you think you may be on the edge of leads ability to remain a solid as it slides down your barrel.
I loaded up a 150-200 grain RNFP over some "conservative" grains of Bullseye using Lyman's 29. The problem is they don't list a RNFP, so I started low and worked up to see what I would get. 951-985 fps in my 4.5 XDM is what I got and it shot 5 rounds where I put the sights at 25 yards. But after 150 rounds at a USPSA match it looked like a pigeon took a lead dump down my barrel and accuracy was a little off on the last stage (6 rounds at 25 yards around a barricade or prone -I took prone just because and cost me 20 seconds on a 40 second stage) even with a stable shooting position and what I thought were good sight pictures I was off the paper on one and only 3 Alphas out of the group. Don't misunderstand, I had a blast and it was better than being at home with PMSing women/girls but it took a while to get the turd out of the barrel. Its my 3rd match and I will be shooting more once I finish school next month so I'm just trying some things out before I get serious and these were the only bullets I had available and they were loaded so I figured why not.
I did notice that the majority of the leading started at about 9:00 looking from the breach and flowed over to 1:00 CW. Could it be that the powder lying on the bottom of the case is creating an uneven pressure wave against the bullet pushing it up into the barrel? Just curious, maybe switching to Clays and 230 grain bullets (although I picked up 500- 200 grain Hollow Base Round Nose after the match) for a while to see if running bigger heavier bullets slower helps me shoot better. Why? Because its fun! ;D
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I would think Bullseye burns pretty cleanly. I mean as far as left over residue.
Are my calculations correct, that 197PF. For competition I down load it some.
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Where did you get the bullets? Might they have been too soft for that velocity?
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Where did you get the bullets? Might they have been too soft for that velocity?
+1
Try a harder alloy.
Also, IF the load you use is one you really, really like, and you don't want to change......invest in a Lewis Lead Remover and put it in your shooting box. I don't know how the matches are set up as for time between stages, but if you have the opportunity during the day, between stages, run one through and get the lead out.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=21587/Product/LEWIS-LEAD-REMOVER
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you might try a cooler burning "ball process" powder....Winchester Super Target (WST)... helps keep from burning the base off a lead bullet...
in addition to the Lewis Lead Remover, you might try a product called Frontier Big 45... looks like lathe turnings or scouring pad... couple of passes wrapped around an old bore brush.... don't try to pull it apart with your fingers...
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The first thing you should probably do is slug your barrel and find its diameter and then check your bullets. They should be at least .001 over the bore diameter. If everything is checks out try a harder alloy.
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Where did you get the bullets? Might they have been too soft for that velocity?
Badman Bullets, 15 Brinnell, and I loaded these (192.4 pf) along with some at ~900 fps (181.2 pf) and my normal competition load (for two of my three matches ;) ) at 840 fps (168 pf) and I ran out of bullets. With three girls, a bad economy and a nervous wife I didn't want to fight over buying more bullets when I had a 150 rounds loaded up on the bench so I just used them. I did pick up 500 bullets after the match (at $41 they were quite a bit cheaper than the $51 I have paid for the Badmans) but I took a look at them today and they lack a grease band. Anything I should do different?
As far as this load is concerned I don't see much need for it in the future, maybe pin shooting but I think I'd go to one of the 255 grain bullets made for that instead. I'm looking at maybe stepping over to Production which is Minor Power Factor (125 pf) only so I'd only need to push these 200 g at 650 fps (130 pf) or 185 grains at just over 700 fps or I could get stupid and run 160 grain bullets at a little more than 800fps. If I do switch I may look for a less dense powder to fill the case a little better.
The Lewis Lead Remover looks like the answer to cleaning my gun regardless of what I do-THANKS! Big Frontier 45 looks like it needs to be put to the test as well, looks like I need to prepare the wife ;D
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So I got some 230g XTPs for Father's Day and have been trying to work up a good round that'll mimic what is available commercially (advertised ~945 fps out of a 5" barrel). So I loaded up 3 charges at 3 different lengths to see what that would get me. Straight out of Lyman's 29 my starting charge was 4.6, then 4.8 then 5.0 of Bullseye. I stayed away from the max of 5.3 because the listed OAL is 1.243 and I had them loaded at 1.200, 1.220, and 1.240"
An interesting thing happened, as the load got larger and filled the case the velocity deviation tightened up. I am short of the my goal by quite a bit at 840 but with another .3 grains to go I can get close with Bullseye but not all the way. It is time to broaden my powder base by 100% and try something new. Col. Cooper liked Power Pistol, some competitive shooters swear by Clays (different objective though) and I've seen others suggest Longshot, Silhouette and IMR 4756. This is for a EOWAWKI load that I plan on having a box in my vehicles and Go Bag.
I must say this is more fun than I thought it would be, except for the 9mm I'm loading up it feels like a chore ;)
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I'm throwing 155 grain .45 lead semi-wadcutters at 1,250 fps with no problems, and I have used a lot of Bullseye to do it.
I use moly coated from BillyBullets.
http://billybullets.com/Bullets.aspx (http://billybullets.com/Bullets.aspx)
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I did basically the same as m58 only I used WW 452 and then WW Super Target with very little leading.
Richard
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I don't have the experience to know how all the factors I'm listing below interact...or if I have the interactions correct...so I'll post what I "think" and learn where I'm wrong
I have heard that the way to determine optimal OAL for a firearm is to take a sized and expanded case start a bullet into it with your fingers, then gently push it into the chamber until it headspaces.
This will produce rounds where the bullet is just touching the start of the lands in the barrel which is supposed to reduce "trauma" to the bullet as it enters the rifling. Of course, this would need to be done for each firearm.
Shortening OAL will increase initial pressure inside the case and the initial velocity and the bullet will have some momentum when it hits the rifling.
I would expect the "slamming" into the rifling to cause a pressure spike and a reduction in the velocity...which the increased pressure might offset some?
With the max OAL determined above, the case will have the maximum powder capacity, which may or may not make any difference depending upon the powder used. The bullet will start resting against the lands which will cause more resistance than bullet inertia along..so that should increase starting pressure. I don't see a pressure spike in this.
I have no idea which will produce the highest muzzle velocity.
A related issue.
After loading for a Ruger Blackhawk, I tended to take the max powder load listed in the manuals as load to approach in small increments and with caution. I always depended upon case examination to show indications that pressure was nearing the max...particularly flattened primers...or even cratered primers if I push to far to fast.
Is that procedure valid for all firearms? Revolver, semi-auto, rifle, pistol, bolt action???
Thanks.
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I have heard of rifle guys doing that but never thought about applying it to my pistol. I'll give it a try and see if my data backs it up. Right now I seem to have max velocity at 1.220" in my XDM with the three loads I ran across the chrono. I'm still getting comfortable with the whole process and beginning to understand some of the parameters in play.
FWIW I've used to bullets in my 45 so far a RNFP from Badman bullets and a RN from Berry's that is moly coated both over Bullseye and CCI 300 primers.
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Yeah...in a rifle, it is probably done for bullet integrity and accuracy. Variations of 100fps might not matter much when you are doing +2000fps.
Accuracy in SD handgun at 20ft probably won't care about a bruised bullet...but 100fps would make a significant difference.
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In a hand gun what works in a rifle may produce a cartridge that gives feeding problems because of the angle it approaches the chamber mouth.
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You do not want the bullet to start against the lands.....it will cause a pressure spike at the point of ignition. You will want to determine what the length is to touch the lands/grooves and then back off a few thousandths.
The Importance of Bullet Seating Depth
(Editors note: This article focuses on the importance of seating depth, and how it can be different for various rifles. To learn more about techniques on determining seating depth click on the below link to read an article from our March, 2009 “Reloading Press”) :
What is the proper seating depth for bullets? There is no definitive exact answer to this. However it is what makes the rifle shoot best. Over the years many bench rest shooters have said that the rifle won’t shoot unless the bullet is jammed into the rifling. I have two rifles in which jamming the bullet works, however on most of my rifles the bullets need some “jump”. The two rifles that like bullets jammed into the rifling are chambered in wildcat cartridges, and their barrels are worn. They each have about 500 rounds through their barrels. One of these rifles is chambered in “.22 Cheetah” which is a notorious barrel burner. I tried seating the bullet on the lands and worked off in 0.005” increments back to 0.020” and accuracy was 0.375-0.500” at 100 yards. I felt that I should be able to tighten the group. So not wanting to miss something I tried seating bullets into the rifling with a 0.005” jam. The group tightened up to 0.220” and when I tried a 0.010” jam, the group opened up to 0.270”. My other varmint rifles like the bullet’s ogive to be seated away from the rifling a bit.
(Note to reader: “jamming” or touching the rifling with a seated bullet will increase case pressure significantly! Use minimum published powder charges while working these loads up. Please approach with extreme caution!)
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more at link:
http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2010/12/15/the-importance-of-bullet-seating-depth/
Here is a thread on the Nosler forum about it.
http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16847
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Thanks, Peg. Lots of good info in the comments too.
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ellis4538... WW452AA was the most accurate powder I ever shot in my 1911s...
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les, Super Target is supposed to be the same or quite similar...give it a try. A number of us have used it with great success since 452AA was discontinued.
Richard
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Richard... shot a lot of WST then later Clays when I was shooting only .45 and 12ga. ... I turned to the Dark Side about 5 years ago, and retired the 1911s for Glock 34... now handload Precision Delta 147 fmj and Win Super Field at about 935fps
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Richard... shot a lot of WST then later Clays when I was shooting only .45 and 12ga. ... I turned to the Dark Side about 5 years ago, and retired the 1911s for Glock 34... now handload Precision Delta 147 fmj and Win Super Field at about 935fps
Barbarian . ;D
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Tom... I love a challenge...and it was after 25years of 1911s for USPSA...I switched to a thumb forward grip at the same time
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So I acquired a couple scrap plates that are 1/2" Stainless and used one to mount my press on my bench, instead of the 3/4" plywood I used before. The difference in rigidity gives a better "feel" when seating primers and a more solid feel when seating bullets, now I just need to bolt the bench to the concrete floor so I'll quit tipping the entire bench back on the tight primers ;D
BTW does anyone sort their brass by manufacturer? I noticed that Remington brass had fewer issues when chamber checking than the other stuff I have (mostly Federal and Winchester) and started sorting last night as I loaded 150 rounds for my next USPSA match. I may pull 10 of each to run across the chrono to see if there is any significant difference.
I must say this is more fun than I thought reloading would be, although there are times when it feels like a chore. Even so I am going to load up 500 rounds for my son's Christmas present this year and my daughter is going to have to help out loading 9mm if she is serious about shooting USPSA with me. A family that shoots together ;)
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I won't say it's a waste of time sorting brass but.....You might have umpteen lots of brass from the same mfg. which will differ slightly from each other. This may or may not make a difference with your loads which you may or may not be able to tell.
FWIW
Richard
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I won't say it's a waste of time sorting brass but.....You might have umpteen lots of brass from the same mfg. which will differ slightly from each other. This may or may not make a difference with your loads which you may or may not be able to tell.
FWIW
Richard
That's what I figured early on but I was taking my time (escaping 3 teen aged daughters) and chamber checking every round when I noticed a pattern with the Remington brass.
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I haven't heard of it being an issue with rifles, but on pistol calibers some companies make "non toxic" ammo.
At least in the 45 acp they use a small pistol primer instead of the normal large pistol primer.
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Tom, that wasn't what I was refering to but that is a good point. Up to now, I haven't had a problem with .45 brass w/sp primers. Because I am unable to sit at the reloading bench or puter very long I take my time and am able to feel the resistence of the primer if I missed it in visual check so no problem. I have read that htere is more varience in how you run the press than in lots of brass.
FWIW
Richard
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I have taken to the military method on rifle brass:
First I sort by mfg, then I sort each by weight.
It may seem like over kill, but there is research that shows it makes a difference. I'm not that good a shooter, but it does give me every possible chance to make sure I catch defects in advance.
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I have taken to the military method on rifle brass:
First I sort by mfg, then I sort each by weight.
It may seem like over kill, but there is research that shows it makes a difference. I'm not that good a shooter, but it does give me every possible chance to make sure I catch defects in advance.
For me it gives me the confidence that the reason I can't hit anything is because of the idgit behind the trigger not because of the idgit that reloaded the ammo-one and the same BUT I want to be able to limit the variables as much as I can.
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I sort by mfg, head stamp and weight. I do wieght for bullets as well. about every 50 rounds or so. I pull one from the bin and wiegh it. If its what it should be, I dump the bin into the box, if not I start wieghing every one. I have never had a squib or a overcharge. I hope I never do. This helps prevent that. yeah I would have to wiegh every one, but with a 1050 that would really slow things down.