The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Harmony Hermit on August 22, 2014, 02:07:00 PM
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Put yourself in this guy's shoes:
OK, you own a storefront business in a central business district in a major city. The area was once middle class but has gone downhill recently. Your business is your life, you have one Daughter in an Ivy League U ($$$) and the other Daughter's husband (With three young kids)is your employee, as is your Brother in law and two cousins (Twelve kids between them). The depend on your business acumen to earn a living. Lose your business you and your family are toast.
The natives are restless over a perceived injustice, and start to riot. You need to protect your life's work but you are not a gun person and the Police cannot help you. You go to one of your customers for advice, you have absolutely no time to "Get Training" but you did do a stint in the guard during 'Nam so guns are not unknown, you just do not have the time to "Train" with some expert.
If you are the customer whose advice the store owner seeks, what guns would you recommend to the businessman and why? Handguns are NOT an option due to laws etc.
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Shot guns loaded with OO buck, fit in training as possible.
If size or strength are issues go with AR's they are simple to learn, low recoil and the 30 round mags give you some leeway if you miss a few times.
At least that is the advice I would give.
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I second the shot guns 12 or 20 ga. pump. They readily available at stores along with an assortment of ammo choices.
Ranger Dave
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Unanimous so far.
I guess an AR if shotgun was not workable...can't think of a better second choice.
Maybe Red Dots or Lasers all around. Range will be short and stress high with no training. Lasers would allow target acquisition and max view area while maintaining maximum cover.
Bandoliers for extra ammo.
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I completely agree with everyone on the shotgun. Specifically a Mossberg 500 with the security barrel. It's very reliable, in inexpensive, and is carried by just about any sporting goods store.
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AR's and AK's are out of the question, banned in most of the areas where this scenario would take place (NY, NJ, Mass, CT Chi, Cali etc)
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To expand on Brushmore's post, there are also enough after market parts for the Mossy 500 that it can be made to fit anyone.
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To expand on Brushmore's post, there are also enough after market parts for the Mossy 500 that it can be made to fit anyone.
same with an 870 not often do we all agree on something, but when we do its always a sign that its the right thing,...
did some one say shot gun ;D
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Given your initial scenario, I would choose an AR first. Low recoil, high round count, easy reload, greater precision and range, and some familiarity as a Nam Veteran.
However, you later removed it as a possibility. Therefore, I must suggest my second, but fully capable, choice: a 12 gauge shotgun. That's really the only logical choice, especially with your restrictions. Even Biden says get a shotgun. ;)
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OK, I'll play.
No handgun (dad gummit!, a CZ999 would be perfect. No safety, DA/SA, 15 rounds)
Next choice would be a simple semi rifle in a low recoil round (really want that citadel 9mm M1)
Realistically, shotgun but not in 12 guage (GASP!). I would suggest 410 or 20. Low recoil, just as effective at across the room distance.
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Staying with the shotgun, but Haz is right. Small gauge.
In this scenario I see range as a "con".
Also, only 1 of the 4 has any stated experience with a fire arm, so even if AR's and hand guns were allowed, they would be more difficult to fire effectively even at close range.
This is a defensive situation. Everyone will be inside and should be behind any "cover that is available..counters, boxes, what ever.
Empty any window display items so that any looting will need to be done inside.
You might loose the big windows, but that is better than standing outside and trying to defend them.
Anyone comes in they die.
Large ammo capacity is not likely to be needed...this is not an assault, just looting..and they will be deterred when the first guy in is dead or bleeding out in the store front. You will likely have plenty of time to reload between attempts, if there is another attempt with, with dead bodies showing what they can expect.
And you don't want to risk hitting folks not trying to enter the shop, both for legal and moral reasons, so the less range the better.
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I would not recommend any Gauge other than 12 or 20.
Ammo capacity is limited so you want the most coverage possible per shot.
Also, the stove pipe type barrels of 12 and 20 gauge have an intimidation factor lacking in 410.
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Don't really know much about the effectiveness of a .410. I hunted with both 12 and 20s, but have never even shot a .410.
In my mind, they would never get to see the barrel, just the muzzle flash if they happened to be looking that way.
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I would not recommend any Gauge other than 12 or 20.
Ammo capacity is limited so you want the most coverage possible per shot.
Also, the stove pipe type barrels of 12 and 20 gauge have an intimidation factor lacking in 410.
Rule of thumb is 1" spread per yard from a shotgun regardless of gauge / caliber so 12, 20 or 410 ain't gonna spread much in room distance. (of course if you have an SBR it may vary)
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Load size would vary...so the "smaller" gauge would deliver more energy.
Here as elsewhere, it might be wise to pick the largest size you can handle reliablelly.
Non-magnum shells should do fine. The self defense loads are usually lighter.
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Don't really know much about the effectiveness of a .410. I hunted with both 12 and 20s, but have never even shot a .410.
With modern defensive loads in .410 I would not discount it. A .410 will have the same velocity of the 12, just a smaller pattern.
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the only difference between the ga is the amount of shot. other wise they are identical. a lead pellet traveling xxx fps does not care.
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Shot gun shot spreads at the same rate regardless of gage,
http://www.luckygunner.com/shotgun/12-gauge-ammo-shells
12 G # 8 shot, 1 1/8 oz
http://www.luckygunner.com/shotgun/20-gauge-ammo-shells
20 g #8 7/8ths OZ
http://www.luckygunner.com/shotgun/410-ammo-shells
410 #9 1/2 OZ
They did not list 20 G OO Buck but for 12 G it was 9 pellets, for 410 it was 3 pellets.
With an equal spread at an equal distance it is mathematically ridiculous to say .410 is just as effective as 12 G.
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In a 3" .410 there are 5 00 buckshot.
In a 3" 12 g there are 15 00 buckshot
Not that I recommend 3" shells, but that is the size I found to compare.
So, roughly, a 12 g has 3 times the "impact" of a .410 at the same velocity.
If 5 buckshot has a high chance of getting the job done, .410 sounds acceptable.
If, on the other hand, the 15 buckshot make a significant difference in effectiveness, go for as big as you can handle.
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If 5 is good 15 is better, that's why they invented machine guns.
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I'm not a big fan of shotguns for non shotgun people (if that makes sense)... my suggestion would be for a Ruger Mini 14 with a quality dot scope (Trijicon RMR) mounted forward on the gas block like a Scout rifle... if political correctness is more important than volume of fire, a 16" Trapper length Marlin lever rifle in .357mag
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...... a 16" Trapper length Marlin lever rifle in .357mag
A friend is a big fan of the .357 lever. I helped him load some .38 Short Colt cases with flat nose bullets at near .357 levels. He can get a lot more rounds in the magazine.
WARNING: This trick was done by professionals, using professional gear and on a closed course. Do not attempt this at home.
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Don't know which is better/worse.
Non-Shotgun people using shotguns or non-rifle people using rifles.
As stated only one of the 5 defenders has any shooting experience and it is limited.
For the few nights I'd look to use lasers so the untrained would just need to pull the trigger when the laser dot was on target.
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after the Columbine Tragedy,a high school principal (and fellow USPSA shooter) and I were discussing options to arm teachers... we settled on a short barreled lever gun in .357/38spl, with a multi source dot like the Trijicon Tripower.... our reasoning was that it's operation was fairly intuitive (if you have ever watched a Western).... minimum recoil and muzzle blast... sufficient stopping power... with a relatively high hit probability of a specific target in a crowded arena
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Not a fan of lever guns. Too easy to short stroke under pressure.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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after the Columbine Tragedy,a high school principal (and fellow USPSA shooter) and I were discussing options to arm teachers... we settled on a short barreled lever gun in .357/38spl, with a multi source dot like the Trijicon Tripower.... our reasoning was that it's operation was fairly intuitive (if you have ever watched a Western).... minimum recoil and muzzle blast... sufficient stopping power... with a relatively high hit probability of a specific target in a crowded arena
In this situation, the targets/defenders are not intermixed. The defenders will be away from the glass entry points in some what of a tight group.
If they are overrun with enough looters to cause worry over a friendly fire incident, they have lost already..
This is a defensive position and you are waiting for intruders to enter your field of fire, which stops at just inside the building, so over penetration and the longer range of a missed shot with rifle rounds could be a problem.
Handguns are out as the primary arm. You have heard it said, and may have said it, many time that a handgun is what you use to fight your way to a long gun.
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No matter which route they go, it all comes down to learning how to use the chosen platform.
Ranger Dave
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No matter which route they go, it all comes down to learning how to use the chosen platform.
Ranger Dave
No doubt about that...but the OP eliminates that as a possibility due to time constraints....riots and looting is happening now.