The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on June 01, 2015, 10:13:00 AM
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I talked to a guy I used to work with over the weekend. He told me he just paid $39,000.00 to have his home "converted" to solar power. Of that $39,000.00, the government only gave him a $9,000.00 credit. It still cost him $30,000.00 out of pocket. He seems to think he'll get it all back, and then some. But I just don't see how.
His house is about the same size as mine, and my worst electric bill in the dead of Summer runs around $250.00 a month. And we don't sweat. We keep the thermostat at 79 in the day, and 78 at night. In the Winter it's sometimes as low as $75.00 a month, and that includes running my pool pump.
$30K buys one hell of a lot of electricity, even at today's high rates. I didn't say anything, but I just don't see how you can make out on a deal like that. Not to mention one big hailstorm and it's game over for your roof mounted solar panels. And from what I understand, most homeowners insurance plans don't cover that kind of damage. I think in the future when the technology gets better, and the panels put out more juice and last longer it might pay off. But not now. Not at those prices. Do you guys know anyone who has it and is getting their money back?
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You never do, even with the tax credits, which go away in 2017. So you have all these companies selling stuff only becuase the tax credits make it look good. What do you think is going to happen to those companies?
I have spent 1000s of hours on this subject, even opened a energy auditing company to give people real world data....
Long story short, unless you live in a area in the southern us, have a perfect set up, can use the 1 time only tax credit, have 300+ days of sun shine, are willing to do the adustments, cleaning and have high power bills....it is a joke.
Basicly if you live in san Diego(or near by) you will never see a dime. If nothing breaks, and you take 3% power cost inflation(which is several times higher then national average) panel degradation and loan costs, it is about 17 years pay off. All of the components have a 15-25 year service life.
Its a legal racket, set up for short term gains...for the installers.
Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.
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You are pretty much parroting a lot of what I've heard over the years. It's a lot like religion. If it was all so wonderful, they wouldn't have to go door to door to sell it. Even out here in the desert, I'd never pay that kind of money. Not to mention it makes your house look like $h!t.
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like most green things, its bs. the way it is installed too will make you cringe, lets say roofers and solar installers don't get along. CA is going to implement solar installers own sub lic. the highest claim rate is pool contractors, solar is getting close. that is why pool guys have different rules and different reqs.
want to do something green that will save the planet and money that you can do ever day?
many of us already do it..... pee in the shower.
PS really if anyone here is interested in solar, PM me... I will be more then happy to go over the pros and cons with some actual real world data, not marketing hype. I always recommend highering a 3rd party to do a energy audit on your house... you know some one that is not trying to sell you something, just selling the audit service.
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want to do something green that will save the planet and money that you can do ever day? many of us already do it..... pee in the shower.
Beat you to it. I've been doing it for decades! ;D
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just try to get your wife to do it.... ;)
get your mind out of the gutter, you don't want it getting wet like that
:P
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I am slowly converting my house to all solar. Saving money has nothing to do with my reasoning. As it is with many that I talk to.
#1 is my own piece of mind. Where I live, if I lose power for any significant amount of time, I AM SCREWED. No heat, No Water. My household comes to a grinding halt. And with a family and livestock to care for, this is not an option.
#2 is the idea of not being reliant on someone else to provide power for my house. Right now I have a very limited system. I placed the water pump for my well on it's own solar power ( backed up by a generator), and replaced one of my pellet stoves with a wood burning stove. This means that my 2 most crucial needs are met. Heat and water. Even if the power goes out I can use wood to heat and I still have water.
A person can survive a long time out of a well stocked pantry and his own means if he's willing to be self sufficient. If it costs 40,000 to not have to rely on someone else to provide something that I can do myself, I'll gladly pay it. For me, what it comes down to is self reliance and security. Can you really put a price on that?
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I notice the solar powered plane flying around the world keeps getting delayed.
Solar power is practical if A you plan on it right from the design stage, B you only consider it for back up, and C you are doing it to lessen logistic burdens rather than to save money since equipment will wear out quicker than it will pay for itself.
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I am slowly converting my house to all solar. Saving money has nothing to do with my reasoning. As it is with many that I talk to.
#1 is my own piece of mind. Where I live, if I lose power for any significant amount of time, I AM SCREWED. No heat, No Water. My household comes to a grinding halt. And with a family and livestock to care for, this is not an option.
#2 is the idea of not being reliant on someone else to provide power for my house. Right now I have a very limited system. I placed the water pump for my well on it's own solar power ( backed up by a generator), and replaced one of my pellet stoves with a wood burning stove. This means that my 2 most crucial needs are met. Heat and water. Even if the power goes out I can use wood to heat and I still have water.
A person can survive a long time out of a well stocked pantry and his own means if he's willing to be self sufficient. If it costs 40,000 to not have to rely on someone else to provide something that I can do myself, I'll gladly pay it. For me, what it comes down to is self reliance and security. Can you really put a price on that?
if I was building out in the country I would look hard at a all solar house, just do to the cost of bringing power in. I have built several all solar cabins over the years. solar is also a good choice for things that run on dc( some well pumps.) as you remove the inverter which is a major loss in efficiency. it is also a major failure point. I would highly recommend running a duel inverter system. yes it adds to the cost, but that one time it fails and you are with out power waiting on parts/service it is worth it. even if its 2 smaller units that only run half your system, that with a switch is a great thing.
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I notice the solar powered plane flying around the world keeps getting delayed.
Solar power is practical if A you plan on it right from the design stage, B you only consider it for back up, and C you are doing it to lessen logistic burdens rather than to save money since equipment will wear out quicker than it will pay for itself.
the most advanced solar plant in the world is in spain, ran a billon over budget, had half the budget put up by the government and still can't make a profit. I think that says it all.
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Our power here has been very consistent over the last 18 years we've been here. But I think I'm going to invest in a good generator. Not those El Cheapo 900 watt models, but something I can run the A/C and fridge off of should we have a major failure. I want it to be portable so if we move it goes with. I would have an electrician wire up a transfer switch so I can plug it in, fire it up and go.
But I'm going to hold off until I'm sure we're going to stay here for at least a while. I haven't decided if I want a multi fuel, (natural gas and gasoline), or just gasoline. I've got natural gas available, so it wouldn't be a big deal to tee off a line from the meter.
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Our power here has been very consistent over the last 18 years we've been here. But I think I'm going to invest in a good generator. Not those El Cheapo 900 watt models, but something I can run the A/C and fridge off of should we have a major failure. I want it to be portable so if we move it goes with. I would have an electrician wire up a transfer switch so I can plug it in, fire it up and go.
But I'm going to hold off until I'm sure we're going to stay here for at least a while. I haven't decided if I want a multi fuel, (natural gas and gasoline), or just gasoline. I've got natural gas available, so it wouldn't be a big deal to tee off a line from the meter.
1 ton of cooling= ~ 3500 watts of power 1ton = 12k btus
if you have a 2 ton system I would recommend a 10k watt unit, 3 ton at least 15k. add 5k watts per ton. yes it is over kill, but it is better to run your gen at 75% then 100%
a 15k watt PNG is about 5k. expect to have to upgrade your gas system to handle it. so anywhere from 7-12k installed.
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What would I have to do to the gas system?
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I have friends in Lake Havasu City who are leasing a solar system for 20 years. All maintenance and upgrades are supplied by the by the company.
As part of the lease contract their electric bill is guaranteed not to exceed $120/mo.
I do not know what their monthly payments are, but they believe that energy costs will rise fast enough to make their breakeven point sooner than had they purchased the system.
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What would I have to do to the gas system?
generally up size the pipe and add another leg. Depending on location of the unit to the meter it can get very expensive. I believe its table 10-4. Of appendix a un the ibc, but it has been awhile, lots of good info out there if you google it.
What happens when that company goes under and a lot will in 2017. As the credits and write offs from doing the installs are tge only thing making them profitable.
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Why are the gas companies going to go under?
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The solar companys. They make thier money off gov cheese that goes away 2017.
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One thing I didn't ask him about are batteries. Don't you need a $h!t house full of batteries to store the energy you generate? Or can you "sell it back to the power companies", like everyone raves about? I always thought the rate they pay you for the excess electricity you produce and don't use, was really cut rate compared to the rates they charge consumers. And really, how many watts can a average size houses roof full of solar panels generate? And if you do store it in batteries, then don't you need big Inverters to change it back to 110 V? Where do you put all of this $h!t on a suburban size lot? (He's got 2 acres).
To me the whole thing sounds more Rube Goldberg the more I think about it. Like I said, I'd rather spend money on a back up generator in case of a long term power failure. That appeals to far more people than having all of that crap mounted on your roof. And like TAB said, when all of the Government backed credits expire, these solar outfits are going to be going broke faster than if you built a whore house in the Vatican. Remember Solyndra??
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This product has been getting some interest as a possible advance is home batteries for energy independence...
Jury is still out however.
http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall
Con:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-06/tesla-s-new-battery-doesn-t-work-that-well-with-solar
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Just like solar, the whole Lithium Ion battery deal still isn't there yet. It is somewhat for common AA and AAA sizes for digital cameras and the like, albeit they're 5 to 6 times as expensive as Alkaline batteries of the same size. But in large, heavy draw situations, they get hot. Really HOT. Remember the laptop fires, along with the fires they had on board the Boeing 777 and 787 that grounded the whole fleet sometime back? All were Lithium Ion battery related. I believe the Chevy "Volt" went through much the same thing, bursting into flames without any warning.
Again, I think in time this sort of thing will improve, and costs drop because the technology will get cheaper over time, much like big screen TV's. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years these things will be common, and almost as cheap as dirt. But for now it's just not there yet. This in spite of Obama thinking he can legislate technology. As I said, remember Solyndra, and the whole Fuel Cell cars pie in the sky..
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I have been looking some at Hydrogen fuel cell generators. They are becoming more mainstream, less expensive and far more reliable than solar. Not to mention way more efficient.
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One thing that may keep the cost of Lithium Ion batteries high is the fact Russia is the largest producer of Lithium. As relations between us and them continue to deteriorate, the cost and availability of Lithium may go even higher. I remember the same thing happened with Titanium in the 60's.
When Kelly Johnson, the President of Lockheed was designing and building the SR-71 Blackbird, they needed huge amounts of Titanium for forgings and large parts they were going to use in it's construction. They had to have the government set up bogus foreign companies in order to be able to purchase the large amounts of Titanium required to build it. We could not get enough of it any other way, because again Russia was, and still is, the largest producer of it.
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I've got about $40K in my off-grid system, which includes 18 panels, a big honkin' battery set-up and a 5Kw propane generator. That compares to $65K to bring the grid to us. Has we brought in the grid, we'd still have heated with propane as the cost for electric heat is brutal up here.
The system is dreadfully overbuilt, but winter in Colorado can be serious business. We went through a lot of debugging last winter and replaced some of the components...when I tried to save a few bucks, it invariably came back and bit me in the ass. The system works and works well.
Of course, the whole house was designed for off-grid. it's passive solar, which is huge, over-insulated and heated through radiant floor heat powered by propane. We paid 2X for the boiler, essentially the top of the line. That has paid off in spades on propane usage. Kitchen, laundry room, and guest bathroom hot water is provided by a traditional gas-fired water heater; master bathroom hot water is from an on-demand European boiler — one again, 3X$ what the builder suggested, but 5 times more efficient than the cheaper units. There are, BTW, 2 separate systems providing the propane from 2 separate 500 gallon tanks. I wanted the tanks connected by manifold, but the builder never understood why. I'm having the manifold installed this summer. The master bath hot water and back-up heating are the only things on one tank. I could literally heat the house for a month or more off the back-up.
We have no AC, but that hasn't been an issue. It's 87 outside now, 73 in the house. Last summer the house only hit 80 degrees for 2 days when it was 100+ outside.
I would like a larger generator, or a back-up generator. I've looked at some reconditioned military diesel generators that could survive the zombie apocalypse. Most of the generator issued were solved by changing out to a more expensive computer to control the gennie. The one we originally had was more designed for RVs or remote cabins. The new computer head allows us more leeway in telling the generator when to fire up (for example, under the old computer the only option we had was setting a threshold voltage on the batteries to have the generator fire; a better way is to set a slightly higher fire voltage but only after a longer period of time, which allows the generator to head off any chance of the batteries hitting "shut down" voltage).
I talked to Buz Mills at GUNSITE, who has a spectacular off-grid system, about the Tesla batteries, but there's just not enough info yet. I sort of had an idea for a back-up battery set-up separate from the main batts.
Sorry to rattle on so long...
Michael B
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Mb, check used tow behind gens in ca at places like rental yards and repair facilities. As of july 1 the next round of carb goes into effect and there.will be hundreds up for sale cheap, you just can't use it in ca... >:(
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One thing I didn't ask him about are batteries. Don't you need a $h!t house full of batteries to store the energy you generate? Or can you "sell it back to the power companies", like everyone raves about?
If you go any type of generation and you are on the grid you want a contract where the utility must purchase your excess. The key to this is that they must pay a price that is based off what they charge for power (government rule to encourage private green. You don't get the full retail price in most cases, but if they will let you just plug in so your meter runs backwards you've got the best deal)
Another thing to do when you go solar or wind is to use as much as you can. Toyota built a new factory a few years ago, and they installed a huge water tank under it. They use excess power to cool the water, and then they use the water to cool the plant. Put in a heat sink and heat it with your excess power. Heating is the easiest thing to do with power, because heating elements don't care about watts or voltage. They just use what is there.
Several hydro plants use excess power in the middle of the night to pump water into a lake higher than the dam, and during peak periods they can draw water from the lake to run more generation than the river will provide on its own.
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Mb, check used tow behind gens in ca at places like rental yards and repair facilities.
I knew a mechanic years ago, who did a lot of work for a guy who had a fleet of trucks. He went under owing the guy a lot of money. He couldn't pay him, so he "gave" him one of those big carbon arc searchlights they use at grand openings and such. The reflector was broken, and there were a few other things wrong with it. (The engine wouldn't run, tires were dry rotted, etc.).
He ended up getting rid of the searchlight part of it, rebuilt the engine in his spare time. He converted it into a big ass generator. When he was all done he ended up selling it for over twice what the guy owed him. I forget what the thing put out, but they're basically giant arc welders.
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I am packing right now to leave CA. I live in an area without natural gas service - and with high heat in Winter and I'm just below snowline. Since the rates are exactly the same as if I had natural gas and lived in a cool area, I pay through the nose. My average electric bill is $400.00/mo. Before you ask, we have done a lot to save energy. Neighbors bills are sky high too.
The rates start at 11.5 cents per kwh but rapidly ramp up to 44.5 cents per kwh. There is zero question in my mind that a system designed to replace the $ 0.30 + per kwh would make financial sense. On the other hand, in Idaho (where I am moving to on Monday) the highest rate I will pay is 12.5 per kwh, plus we have access to natural gas. No way does solar make sense there.
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When I was on the local utility commission we had access to rate charts and actual charges nationwide. I also have people I work with all over the country. California is one of the only places, and the only full state, where solar pays for itself without government subsidy (except the requirement that the utility purchase your surplus whether they need it or not).
When we experimented with a small solar system, with battery storage, at our generator plant, our system produced electricity for $0.24 KWH. At that time the average electric bill in most of California was averaging $0.28 KWH, not including cost of providing service, etc.
Get ready boys and girls, the VP Gore method of forcing "green" energy on the nation is coming to your area in the same way it has hit California.
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Reviving the Solar thread:
I figure there are 5 reasons for using solar.
1. PR value for a corporation or social standing/pride for an individual
2. Want or need to be Off Grid
3. To save money
4. Emergency backup
5. Experimentation
SeaTac Airport, yes in Seattle, put in a system. Not the best climate for solar, but then the Feds paid for it. So it was for them a 1 and 5. Plus they did save money on whatever they generated. Interesting after reports from the director.
Feds paid for a system for the local national park (Kennesaw Mountain). Again they did it because of 1. and the Feds paid for it. I pointed out in the local rag that given the money the Feds put up, the park ranger could have invested it and with the earnings have paid the commercial electrical plus pocketed ~$10K a year. Looking for a follow up story.
Local winery is doing it purely for 1.
I'm more of a 3 and 4 with a lot of 5 thrown in.
Not willing to get entangled with the "deals" some installers are offering and not wanting to spend a lot of money. I've been looking around the house for some application that will let me experiment, pay for itself in <5 years and serve as an emergency backup.
The first app that came to mind was the pool pump. This would be easy to install as it was all readily accessible. It drew 4.5A, 240Vac 10hours a day. Kept running the numbers and payback, with me doing the installation and no maintenance was 8+ years. That exceeds the life expectancy of the batteries and possibly the cells. PROBLEM WAS, it was too demanding an application. If you want to run it all day and have enough battery for the next day when there might be no sun, then the batteries and solar panels where far too big to be economical.
New app is the clothes washer & dryer and the freezer in the garage. Wiring is easily available the demand time is much less and doesn't interfere with the charging time. Ah. This might be ideal. Payback on just the dryer would be <3 years. Add the freezer and a small drink fridge I think I have a winner.
Right now I'm working on adding the freezer and fridge in the mix and finding a company to install the solar panels. Miss Kitty says no more "on the roof" work for me.
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You forgot the most important one... the tax credit/ write offs. Onky reason business are doing it. They are saying its to be green, but thats bull shit. Its about being able to wrote off the entire system.
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That’s saving money. It’s why I leased a Leaf for 2 years. With fed and state rebates and charging at work, I saved a ton.
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I'm a 4, 3 and 5 in that order.
Larger wattage draws like your pool pump are the issue. That sort of thing requires an all in commitment.
I think your freezer/refrigerator idea may fly. I was surprised to see how little power they need when sourcing their power with gasoline generators. Good luck with the washer and dryer project. Just offhand that seems pretty intense so keep up posted on that.
I'm wanting to supply WiFi all around the property here and I'm thinking some of those smaller solar generators (battery packs with dc-ac inverters) with solar panels may fit the bill by powering bridges and/or mesh access points. That's my on tap solar project for next year.
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They already make solar powered wifi extenders. Look into the farming supply stores. Most new farm tracking/productivity/ equipment uses some type of connection to the net. While the bigger stuff uses cellar, the smaller stuff uses wifi. I installed one of these with thier hub2t. It was about $ 900 total. Supposed to be good for up to half a mile. https://ayrstone.com/www/product/solar-and-battery-power-system-hub2t/
I can't speak for how long it lasts, but at my place I can pick up signal at my mail box, which is about 800 yards away from the pole.( as the crow flys.)
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Thanks for the link. It looked good at first and then I started peeling back the onion. Here's the manufacturer's link they provided: https://www.tyconsystems.com/rppl1248-36-35 (https://www.tyconsystems.com/rppl1248-36-35)
I saw they couched that the solar may not work all the time in northern winters. So...they have a 35 watt solar panel. Hmmm.
Next they have a 36 amp hour battery to support the system. They keep everything DC voltage.
So, what I have been looking at are panels with solar generators and then an off-the-shelf outdoor mesh/access point system. This link shows a 80 amp hour and 100 watt panel that converts to AC for $300 https://www.amazon.com/Enginstar-Portable-Power-Station-Solar/dp/B093T7T7ZQ (https://www.amazon.com/Enginstar-Portable-Power-Station-Solar/dp/B093T7T7ZQ) which is 3X the solar panel and 2X the battery.
Here's the mesh/access point I'm looking into at $140 https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Networks-UAP-AC-M-US-Wide-Area-Dual-Band/dp/B076B4ZVF2/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=mesh+access+point&qid=1660486104&sr=8-3 (https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Networks-UAP-AC-M-US-Wide-Area-Dual-Band/dp/B076B4ZVF2/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=mesh+access+point&qid=1660486104&sr=8-3) . Of course now I'd need a suitable enclosure and a POE for about $25 to make this work. All in all it's a bit cheaper and more capable getting the individual components but you gotta put it all together so it's not as slick as buying one that you can just stick in the ground. Plus with the do-it-yourself you have an AC source available which I plan to utilize with a GMRS radio sitting in a charger in the enclosure for emergency coms.
However...800 yards is pretty dang good and that may settle it. I only get about 300 yards straight out and 175 yards to the side with the access points I use now https://www.amazon.com/TP-LINK-EAP110-Outdoor-Wireless-Installation-Controller/dp/B07RTYZ9ZG/ref=sr_1_14?crid=3AGFPO7Q8TB8J&keywords=tp+link+access+point&qid=1660486530&refinements=p_36%3A1253504011&rnid=386442011&s=electronics&sprefix=tp+link+access+point%2Caps%2C73&sr=1-14 (https://www.amazon.com/TP-LINK-EAP110-Outdoor-Wireless-Installation-Controller/dp/B07RTYZ9ZG/ref=sr_1_14?crid=3AGFPO7Q8TB8J&keywords=tp+link+access+point&qid=1660486530&refinements=p_36%3A1253504011&rnid=386442011&s=electronics&sprefix=tp+link+access+point%2Caps%2C73&sr=1-14) . I'm going to go ahead with the Ubiquiti access point above for the other side of the house and see how it works. If I don't get near that 800 yard mark the choice won't be too hard. I need that kind of range to cover the property with 4 remotes....400 yards would mean dead spots or employing 6-8 units...quite a cost difference.
As an aside, right now I'm using a Ubiquiti nanobeam Gen 2 bridge to bring the fiber optic internet from one house to the other. It's been working flawlessly for over a year and a half now. For the first year it was satellite internet...which is poor at best. Now it's hooked to the fiber optic internet. I have never had to reboot or reprogram or power down and up to keep the nanobeam bridge online and it's always had super quality performance. It's good for I think 450 mbs which is faster than the 100 mbs service I have. I'm running a router and an access point at the remote house and we watch a couple of prime shows simultaneously and surf the net with no problems.
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Per thier specs it only use 4 watts of power. Thats only .167 amp hours power usage. Even if you make it .5 ah that is still 3 days with no sun. Granted you probably won't be out in that kind of weather and the cold will kill a lot of power. It was what I could get at cal ranch( local farm store) so it is what I bought. It has been about 9 months no issues.
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9 months is a good run to not have nit picking problems.
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GOOD NEWS:
-Discussing this project further with sons and figured out how we can do our own installation of the solar panels.
-The new pork-filled Inflation Reduction Act, like or not, will increase the solar incentive to 30%, currently at 23%.
-Not getting firm numbers on power consumption for some appliances, I bought the cheap "Kill-a-Watt" watt meter so I can monitor the freezer and fridge to determine the exact usage. Only problem with this meter is it resets when you unplug it. Got to remember to record the numbers.
BAD NEWS:
-Taking a day off to go shooting and sitting down and rerunning the numbers, it's not as optimistic as I had hoped. With the 30% rebate it's just under 9 year payback. Of course what you're buying is also some backup power. At this point I'm considering putting in a much larger inverter than I need for future upgrade to solar cells and batteries.
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Shooting isn't a bad day!!!
Number crunching can be. 9 year payout. Well that is disappointing to the point of high suckology. Especially for us old folks who are of "that" age. How does the rebate work? I haven't installed significant solar backup power but when I build that will be a part of the expense. I'm guessing keep the propane heat in place and use solar to run the furnace...and fridge, etc.
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It’s a non-refundable tax rebate. You take it as credit against your federal income tax. If perchance you don’t owe enough taxes to use the entire rebate you can roll over the remainder till the next year.
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Does it come off the tax itself or the base you calculate the tax on?
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Right off the Tax line. It's a credit as opposed to an exemption or deduction. $1 for $1 off your taxes.
Put in a $30,000 solar system, get a tax credit of $9,000. Or in my case $4,000 get $1,200 off.
To be specific on 2021 tax returns you fill out a 5695. The rebate goes to 1040 Schedule 3 line 5. That then goes to 1040 line 20 and is deducted from your Tax, line 16 to come up with your Total Tax line 24. From there you deduct you tax contributions and the net is your refund, or what you still owe.
Trick is I don't think the acting president has signed it and I don't know when the 30% takes affect. Probably 1/1/2023.
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Thanks. I've really been wanting to get some kind of limited capacity system in.
Keep us posted on what you end up with.
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The acting president signed the bill. I tried to read some of the actual text and boy is it convoluted.
<re IRS 1986 Code>
``(ii) in the case of any property the
construction of which begins before January 1,
2032, and which is placed in service after
December 31, 2021, 30 percent,
What the bill does is just modify the existing rebate by changing the wording to reflect 30% and the expiration date to 2034. So it reads, I think, that the 30% is affective immediately.
With my new set of numbers I'm looking at 10yr payback to run just the dryer, freezer and fridge. 16 years if I go with LiFe batteries but they they have 10x of the life cycle of AGM and 7x over Gel. Keep running numbers and looking at other dealers and options.
Baby steps. First I need the meter box on the outside of the house replaced with a modern two compartment one. This will make future mods to the electrical system easier. My breaker box needs to be replaced. It's rather dated and the wiring somewhat of a rats nest. Maybe one of those fancy Leviton units with energy monitoring.
There are all sorts of other energy savings provisions. Plus some power companies offer rebates on heat pumps applications. I used my heat pump rebate with GA Power years ago. Had a new system installed, got heat pump and got a substantial rebate. Then I switched the system to emergency, natural gas mode, which was cheaper, and never used the pump in the winter.
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Again, keep us posted on what you buy and why. Retrofitting existing construction is expensive and a real pain. Having good ideas to put into new construction is a lot cheaper.
I wonder if a transfer switch to go to 100% solar would be covered by the tax credit...I bet so. In my future new construction (hopefully starting late spring 2023 now) I plan to put in a propane stove, etc. Part of that will be some propane lights for emergency use...maybe a propane fired instant hot water system that the solar could control for hardly any energy.
Have you heard about the heat pump water heaters that are being put into attics? Someone I know has one...very pricey but it works great. It helps to cool the attic and blows the chilled air back into the house.
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Joined a Solar forum. Working on one step at a time.
Micro-Inverters. They're all the rage. They, improve the overall efficiency of the solar panels. One inverter per panel (they make 4 panel models, so works out to about $150/panel). Then you feed this directly to the grid, since their output is 240Vac. Not only do they monitor each panel independently, if a panel has a shadow or trash on it, it doesn't drag down the other panels. Good payback. Small 1500W system can payback in ~5years.
Here's the rub. There's no battery backup nor do they operate when the power is out. In fact, they specifically shut down when the power goes out for safety reasons. If you want battery backup then you add in a charger and batteries and another DC-AC inverters. So I'm not going with mirco-inverters.
Investigated the fire shutdown code and it doesn't have to be automagic. A manual switch, outside, clearly labeled will suffice. I could get fancy and do something where heat sensors would trip it, but for now a manual switch, which I had planned to do anyway so I could disconnect them for maintenance.
The forum helped me with a question in that you have to match up the PV panel outputs with the inverter capability. Some inverters are meant for light duty charging mostly consumer (read USB stuff) and need 12Vdc output panels. Some are meant for bigger systems with multiple banks of panels in series putting out 250Vdc and other are in between needing 60-150Vdc from the panels. That's where I'm at.
Thinking of Sun Gold 6Kw 240 split phase inverter. EG4 48V 100AH battery, maybe 2 but I could start with one to see how it works. And the panels I'm toying with US made. Many cheap choices out there which I'm betting are just that, cheap. The biggest problem is shipping. The batteries are $350ea to ship. And most places only want to sell the solar cells by the pallet or crate. I may have to get in touch with the ham community and do a group buy.
GA isn't exactly a hot bed of DIY solar retailers. When I pull the trigger I may have to find someone making the trip from Dallas to Marietta willing to haul and additional 500# of stuff for me. There is a retailer in Ft Myers where my BIL lives.
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Since the 30% fed rebate is good for some years to come and the cost of shipping is so high AND, I'm not in a good location, I think Miss Kitty and I will put the solar project on hold for a while. I worked up some spreadsheets showing both a true hybrid solar system and a battery backup with no PV solar cells.
A battery-backup charged by the grid and kept on standby just for power outage use to run freeze and fridge, and maybe a few other minor things (no solar cells):
12V system with 3000W inverter $1,710 and will run 2.4 days
48V system with 3500W inverter $2,700 and will run 4.7 days
Add in the Solar Cells:
48V system with 6,000W inverter $4,250, payback in ~15years. Will run appliances pretty much indefinitely.
All after rebates of course.
The issue, not having a good solar footprint, is how much is the battery backup worth to me? $1,000? That'll impact the perceived payback. We'll wait until 2023 to see what the industry does.
STOP THE PRESSES!! I've found a DIY solar store in Savannah! Maybe I'll sneakily plan to attend a match down there and then just "happen" to drop in the store with Miss Kitty before we return home.
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Interesting. Of the two, I like the 48V system. In this example $1k for 2X performance is a no brainer.
OK. Question. That 15 year payback was calculated on continuous use of the system to replace commercial power?
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Yes, the payback was calculate on running the freezer, fridge, clothes dryer, security lights and garage door opener. These are items that are readily accessible, wiring wise. I could run more but it would require more solar cells to keep the batteries charged, plus doing some recabling. Note we only run the dryer one day a week, laundry day, so that skews you daily requirement. Since I only have room for limited solar cells then I need to have enough battery to run the dryer for that day. I can take all week to charge it back up. This isn't an ideal situation. That's why it's on hold for a while. Right now I'm monitoring my household power with the Emporia monitoring system.
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IN THE MEAN TIME.
Installed the Emporia electrical monitoring system in my circuit breaker box. The most interesting thing I've found is the way the Dacor oven behaves. This oven was acquired 10 years ago during renovation. The interior designer picked it out and I hate it. No door switch for the light, coils all on top which screws up baking and it uses the broiler coils to bring the oven up to temp for baking, which means it will burn anything you put in the oven before it reaches backing temp.
I knew Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) was a god send for motors and lighting. In a crude sense, all oven used PWM by turning on the coils until desired temp was reached and them turning them off again until the temp was nn degrees below desired. A crude example with a very large pulse width. However, evidently, newer oven are pretty complex about their use of PWM. Here's a timeline of my oven heating up to baking temp, then one complete cycle of maintaining temperature. Just overly complicated for something that should be so much simpler.
What it means to my household? Not much. Just an interesting observation on how these things work these days.
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Interesting about the PWM. I wasn't aware of that scheme.
I keep going back to a propane/natural gas heated oven in my thinking. That will lower the solar demand over a fully electric dryer. Also having a refrigerator/freezer powered by burning gas is an option I like. If I ever really stop working and build a new house I'll have piping for propane for a stove, heat, lights, a dryer and a refrigerator/freezer along with a 1,000 gallon underground tank. The lights will be limited and for emergency only and the refrigerator/freezer on unused standby for a long term emergency.
I keep thinking EMP in the back of my head and how just having lights, a stove and refrigeration will be a tremendous boost...those items along should run for 2 years on a full 1,000 gallon propane tank. Then having solar stored to avoid an EMP event that I'd pull out after the chance for another EMP has passed would be really good.
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One overlooked casualty of EMP is LED lighting. This goes from light bulbs to indicator lamps. And could include flashlights and camping lights. That's one reason I keep a stock of incandescent light bulbs and haven't given up on a couple of halogen flashlights.
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One overlooked casualty of EMP is LED lighting. This goes from light bulbs to indicator lamps. And could include flashlights and camping lights. That's one reason I keep a stock of incandescent light bulbs and haven't given up on a couple of halogen flashlights.
You are right. I have NOT thought about that angle. I guess I need to invest in a few non-led lights. How about the fluorescent camping lanterns?
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Al you are absolutely right and I am glad that you have brought that up. I was thinking a few months ago to get some flashlights and halogen light bulbs just for this and forget. Also, I have some incandescent bulbs but not nearly enough.
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LEDs are tiny semiconductors and many devices, flashlights, also have small processors inside them. In a true wide scale EMP event they will probably be affected. Metal flashlight bodies might provide some random protection.
Now in such an event there probably won’t be any commercial power, and our solar powered back up with smart chargers and inverters as well as the PV cells are just chocked full of electronics and will also fail. So I wouldn’t spend too much money on incandescent bulbs IF EMP is your primary concern.
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Laundry day. Got to analyze the dryer's energy usage. I bought this dryer (Whirlpool twin) when they were a new product. I'm thinking at least 20 years ago. So I'm surprise at the PWM usage. The machine constantly cycles the heaters up and down. Below is our four loads of clothes. The shorter cycle was because Miss Kitty didn't think load number 2 was dry enough and so did a 10 or 15 minute manual cycle. Reason for not knowing how long she selected, and it's something to investigate is you'll notice the dryer does a cool down period at the end of each load. The period is temperature based because it varies from 5 to 10 minutes. So the question is: Does the cool down period count toward the manual drying time. e.g., If I select a 10 minute manual cycle is it 5 minutes of heat and 5 minutes of cool down? Or is the cool down time in addition to the time I select. Inquiring minds want to know.
This is a little more than academic curiosity. If you're trying to plan energy usage for a solar system, then you can no longer just multiple the max amps * voltage * time. It's an average of the up and down cycles, which obviously vary. An recorder/analyzer like Emporia lets you get a better handle on how much capacity over time you need. BUT, you still have to plan max capacity for those moments in time when all devices are drawing their max at the same exact time.
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Gotta love Miss Kitty. Part of the reason for looking into solar for things based in the garage is that we selected the garage as our "project" for the fall. Have contractor scheduled to come in an fix the walls and ceiling, and a flooring company to put in some type of nice floor. I've down sized, thrown out, and rearranged my tools and things. I keep eyeing the fridge and freezer, thinking that we could do quite well, thank you M Kondo, with just one fridge. But I didn't think I'd broach the subject with Miss Kitty until one of the existing units died. Both about ~20years old at this point. Well we stopped at Home Depot for some parts for another project and she said she was going to browse appliances. 10 minutes later she's dragging me down the appliance aisle pointing out the $3,500+ refrigerators. Takes me to a far corner of the store where they have some clearance items. A brand new Samsun, 24cuft, SxS model for $1,200. Absolutely the ugliest thing inside and out. No rounded corners, no cute storage bins, no indoor dispenser, no water filter, not a wasted inch inside. Perfectly square corners at every level. Checked with the associate and it is a newer model that doesn't have Samsung compressor problems of their older ones. Full warranty. Arriving next week.
Forget all the power studies of the separate freezer and fridge. I'm willing to bet it'll draw less than either one of the older ones. While that's good for our power bill, it means I won't save as much taking it off-grid. Oh, well, she did ask which battery back up system I was considering, so she may be thinking of rolling that into the garage renovation cost.
More to follow.
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Had the new fridge/freezer for a couple of weeks now. It draws typically at most 80Watts. E-I-G-H-T-Y Watts! Verified both with the Kil-A-Watt meter and the Emporia analyzer. (Which by the way notifies me of certain events. Like if the oven runs for more than 2 hours in case we forgot to turn it off!) With such a small, and efficient compressor, it runs longer periods than older fridges but the overall result is it uses less power over time. Below is a second-by-second chart of the new fridge's power consumption.
With Ian just passing by and the upcoming winter, Miss Kitty and I have decided to invest in a small battery backup system. If I add a solar cell to it of course I can claim a 30% tax rebate for it. With the fridge/freeze drawing such little current and since this system won't deep cycle the batteries daily, only in a power outage, I've re-designed it with Gel cells instead of LiFeP batteries. With 200Ah of batteries I can keep both primary and secondary fridge's running for 2 days, maybe more if I turn the temperature up. It also means I can get away with a smaller inverter. Below is also a pictorial of what I'm designing. The since I won't discharge it daily I don't need but a single cell to keep it charged over long periods of non-use.
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Good information. Keep it up.
80 watts is astounding. I knew the power drain was low because I ran one along with other equipment on an 1,800 watt inverter generator....but I had no idea it could get that low.
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I don’t know how they do it, but a guess would be a combination of over voltage pulsing and maybe a flywheel and auto-clutch. Pulse the motor and fly up to speed then the clutch engages the compressor load. Evidently they run a smaller compressor but for longer periods of time. Evidenced by the electrical draw, the duty cycle and the instructions to allow 4 hour cool down period when installing.
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On the DIY Solar forum someone wanted to how they could measure their sunlight, over time, at different locations around their house. Got me to thinking. I have an Ambient Weather station which is on-line (yes you can check out the weather at my house) and one of it's features is a Solar Radiation and UV index. I never paid much attention to those readings, I mean if it's bright and sunny outside they're high. Duh. But then I thought I'd dig a little further and sure enough Ambient Weather keeps, at least the last 24hrs of readings on-line. Now my weather station is located near my only south facing roof usable for solar cells. Below are the graphs for the other day. It is fall and the sun is getting lower on the horizon. The trees are a real problem as you can tell. If one wanted to go to the trouble one could put the weather station on a base plate and just set it in various places to get sun graphs.
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Went with 2 Weize 100Ah GEL batteries. I'm not going to deep cycle these every day so not worth the price for LiFeP batteries. There is a weigh penalty of about 40# per battery though. So the total weight of the box, electronics and batteries is about 150#. 1,000W inverter is plenty to run a fridge and freezer along with a few lights and fans. Below you'll see the where I was playing with the layout, the final layout in the box and the box on it's stand. I kept the stand separate to make it a smaller package for portable operations. There's room in the bottom for a 3rd battery. If more batteries are desired I could build another box and stack them.
I ran the freezer for 6 hours to insure it all works. Rather boring because at 100W the inverter doesn't hum and the fans don't come on. Miss Kitty approves, so much nice than a gas generator. Of course solar charging during any prolonged blackout would mean relocating the cells to better sunlight, but for keeping the batteries topped off in the mean time, I'll mount them on the roof.
Miss Kitty, using her best Ian Malcom, Jurassic Park voice say: "So you do intend to have solar panels with your solar system someday?"
Funny thing about that. FedEx, evidently recreating the Pony Express, drug the two solar panels from CA to GA behind their truck. Took two weeks, most of which was spent either 50miles up the road at their Cartersville center or at the local distro warehouse. I refused to accept the panels and HD has order me two more. We'll see if they fair better.
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That looks great. Now I'm interested in how much that set you back! The Jackery 1000W is ~$1099 with $150 off (no solar panel) right now. Also the Jackery is only 46 amp hours versus your 200 amp hour setup.
Jackery link: https://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Portable-Explorer-Generator-Emergency/dp/B083KBKJ8Q/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1L0EU937O5LK0&keywords=Jackery+Portable+Power+Station+Explorer+1000%2C+1002Wh+Solar+Generator+%28Solar+Panel+Optional%29&qid=1667171638&sprefix=jackery+portable+power+station+explorer+1000%2C+1002wh+solar+generator+solar+panel+optional+%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-2-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Portable-Explorer-Generator-Emergency/dp/B083KBKJ8Q/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1L0EU937O5LK0&keywords=Jackery+Portable+Power+Station+Explorer+1000%2C+1002Wh+Solar+Generator+%28Solar+Panel+Optional%29&qid=1667171638&sprefix=jackery+portable+power+station+explorer+1000%2C+1002wh+solar+generator+solar+panel+optional+%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-2-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5&psc=1)
How long do you figure you can run your freezer on your setup?
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You guys lost me 3 pages ago. I wish I knew more about this stuff. If everything goes to hell, I've got these to rely on..... Assuming I can get fuel for all of them. The Honda is from around 1985. Still runs good, but is a pain to start.
(https://i.imgur.com/obk60HW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RBu3yCn.jpg?1)
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Busy today doing a Halloween SFX gig. Tomorrow I’ll post a whole list. Basically, including a 4awg crimper, it was just under $1,300. With tax rebate though it comes to just over $900. I haven’t bought the cabling to go from the panels to charger when I mount them on the roof. It’ll be just 12awg carrying 10A @ 24V so common stuff.
There are some inefficiencies, but I think I can run both fridge/freezers for 2 days. One trick will be to raise the temps a little and not open the freezer during the outage.
The pre-packaged units are going to be a little pricey and not a lot of Wh, but you’re paying for the convenience, the portability and prefab. Some offer add on batteries.
Bill, I had a gas gen for 5 years got tired of changing out the gas every 6 months. This I’ll use to power the shop tools and keep topped off with the PV cells for free.
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You guys lost me 3 pages ago. I wish I knew more about this stuff. If everything goes to hell, I've got these to rely on..... Assuming I can get fuel for all of them. The Honda is from around 1985. Still runs good, but is a pain to start.
What we're talking about are basically just batteries and power inverters. Combined, they sell those as "solar generators" though mostly they never come with solar cells to plug into them. I have one each of a 100 watt and 300 watt output "solar generator" and they work fine for lights, internet, telephone booster, etc. when the power goes out for a couple of hours. They are small and light and you just plug into them just like you do with your wall receptacle.
Also, they make barely any noise with just a hum or a fan running inside. They were absolutely super to have around after the last hurricane in Louisiana. If you don't need to run generators 24/7 for A/C and such the two units were great for led lights around the house....they lasted "forever" and when we kicked on the generators we recharged them quickly.
Another thing you can do is to buy uninterruptible power supplies. Same thing as the "solar generator" but without a plug-in for a solar cell and you connect your device to them all the time so that if the electricity goes out your device never knows it. When we folded the last company I kept 3-4 or them which the guys had on their computers so that they didn't loose hours of work if the lights flickered. I have them on my internet connection, routers, computer and security system. That way when the power goes out they automatically switch to their internal batteries and keep on keeping on.
These "solar generators" have a niche'. Alf is taking it a step further by buying the components and increasing the capacity by a factor of 4+ because of the batteries he has for less than the going price of a storebought unit.
Right Alf?
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"Solar Generators" The prices are all over the place. Typical might be 500Wh unit for $1,000. Cute, complete, fairly light, but not a lot of power. Great for charging your laptop, pad or phone and a few lights while camping.
What I built has 2,400Wh of power. Not light, not very compact, but it will run two fridge/freezers for 2 days. Not to mention if it's winter I can run the HVAC blower on my natural gas furnace for some period of time.
Here's my parts list:
2ea Weize Gel 100Ah Batteries
1ea Renogy 1,000W Inverter
1ea Renogy 500A battery meter
2ea Renogy 100W Mono panel
1ea Renogy 30A PWM Charge Controller
1ea Renogy PV panel Accessory kit
1ea DeWalt Batter Charger
3ea ANL Fuse Blocks w/ 100A fuses
2ea 30A ANL fuse
2ea 20A ANL fuse
1ea Fuse block with 6 blade fuse protected circuits
1ea 4 pair 5/16”-4AWG connector pack
1ea Cable Crimping tool 8AWG-1/0
3ea Black/Red Pair 1’ 4AWG cables with lugs
1ea Plywood DIY enclosure
2ea Mini Tie-down straps
5ft 10AWG wire with 5/16” lugs
50ft 12AWG SOOW wire
2pr Solar Panel Connectors
I went with GEL batteries because unlike daily off-grid applications that deep cycle the battery every day, I may only deep cycle these batteries once every month. I didn't need to pay 4x for LiFeP batteries, but I am paying for it in 2x weight. I think a battery meter is vital for monitoring. You can directly tie everything to the inverter (stacking) so you don't need the buss bars. And the 20A and 30A fuse blocks could have been mini-ANL but the ANL fuse blocks came 3 to a package. The Renogy Inverter has a USB charging port, but by adding the 12V fuse block I can attach a USB charger, or my ham radio or 12V lights, without running the inverter.
Right now I stand at $1,316.15 including taxes and a 4AWG-0/0 crimping tool. That's $921.31 after rebate. That'll change slightly as I got a discount from HD for the screw up with the PV panels and I haven't bought the 12AWG cable or the solar connectors.
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I was wondering how long to charge those batteries if they were down. I found this calculator: https://portablementor.com/solar-battery-charge-time-calculator/ (https://portablementor.com/solar-battery-charge-time-calculator/) .
The calculator appears right since a little research provides that 100 watts should charge 30-45 amp hours a day.
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Rough, gross rule of thumb, most panels will provide 10A in full sun. What varies with the different size panels is their voltage. 400W panels typically run at ~45V, while 100W panels are around 12V. It varies. Put four 400W panels in series and your getting 180V, but you only have to cable for 10A. Remember 12V can actually be 11.x to 14V, with lead acid it’s 12.8. you have to look at the exact specs of each panel.
Match the charge controller to your expected voltage, then it doesn't care, as in my case, 24V @ 10A or 12V @ 20A. It’ll charge the 12V batteries @~20A/hr, full direct sunlight.
Oops, but all this is pie in the sky. PV panels rarely meet their advertised output. And they tend to loose some power after their first week in the sun. Then the charge controllers aren’t 100% efficient, and neither are the batteries nor the inverter. Then, of course, is the question of exactly how much sunlight do you get per day?
This isn’t a daily use or total off grid application, so if it takes me a week too fully charge them, that’s okay. I may use 10-15% with power tools once in a while, if that much,otherwise the cells serve to keep the batteries topped off and to qualify for the 30% tax rebate.
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Is the tax rebate on all of the components or just the solar panels?
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I believe it is on the “system”.
Caveat: I’m am not an attorney nor a a currently licensed CPA.
[EDIT 11/8] Here's the legal mumbo-jumbo from the IRS form 5695.
Qualified solar electric property costs. Qualified solar electric property costs are costs for property that uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in your home located in the United States.
They use the word "property" instead of "system". They don't say specifically limited to the PV panels and do say that even roofing structure, if it is part of the system can qualify. I read it as all the parts and pieces that go into providing usable electrical energy. The IRS website hasn't been updated since 2020 so it still says 26%.
https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-5695 (https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-5695)
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Here's the whole sorted story in one post.
What I did over Fall Break
Or
My Solar Emergency System
Synopsis
• Wanted an emergency power backup system primarily for the freezer to protect the turkey, hog and deer meat.
• Went with Gel batteries, 2 @ 100Ah, because they will not be deep cycled often enough to warrant the cost of WiFeP.
• Installed two 100W mono panels to keep the batteries charged and to cover some light usage.
• Utilized a 1,000W Renogy pure sine wave inverter.
• Did a test run with the Freezer running off the batteries for 6 hours with no problems and meter still said 30hrs left.
• Have it on a portable platform in my work room where it will run the other battery chargers and the occasional use of the belt sander and grinder.
• Cost before rebate, $1,430. After rebate, 1001.22
I research and planned a solar system trying to save money on my electric bill. As many have discovered, depending on the application and the solar exposure it was a no win for my situation. After much discussion with the CFO and co-CEO of our family we finally put a dollar amount on the remaining benefits of solar.
Environmental bragging rights $5
Tinkering/Experimenting $250
Emergency Backup $1,000
So there’s my budget. $1,255. Ah but wait. There’s a 30% discount if it’s a “solar” system. C-o-o-l!
The primary usage during a power outage would be to save the frozen foods in the freezer and refrigerator. Analysis shows the new freezer draws 500Wh each day. Obviously during prolonged outage we’d minimize the times we open the doors and turn the temperature up a little. Given that this is not a daily, off-grid usage but strictly for power outages, and maybe occasional portable usage, Gel cells were selected to save money. Deep cycles, space and weight are not a primary concern. The house and lot don’t have a good southern exposure but two typical PV cells can be mounted on an odd, south facing roof extension by the garage, giving 4-5 hours of sun a day. As an emergency system designed only to provide short term coverage, the cells should be adequate to keep the batteries topped off. If, per chance there is an extended outage then the cells would help stretch the power coverage. I was able by using Home Depot for some Renogy items, and Amazon for the batteries and accessories. The out-of-pocket, including shipping and taxes is $1,430. After rebate that’ll come to$1,001. Well within budget and with two 100AH batteries and two 100W solar cells for redundancy.
There’s my initial concept diagram.
The initial drawing was for a 2,000W inverter, but after analyzing the need further I’ve down sized it to a 1,000W model. Also added a fuse to feed the 12V fuse block. Since I’m a ham radio operator and all my radios operate off 12V I thought having a 12V distro would be handy, for participating in portable operations such as ARRL Field Day. Here’s the list of materials ordered. to which was added a 4AWG crimper and ome 3/8”– 4AWG lugs:
2ea Weize Gel 100Ah Batteries
1ea Renogy 1,000W Inverter
1ea Renogy 500A battery meter
2ea Renogy 100W Mono panel
1ea Renogy 30A PWM Charge Controller
1ea Renogy PV panel Accessory kit
1ea A/C Battery Charger
3ea ANL Fuse Blocks w/ 100A fuses
2ea 30A ANL fuse
2ea 20A ANL fuse
1ea Fuse block with 6 blade fuse protected circuits
4pr 5/16”-4AWG connector pack
1ea Cable Crimping tool 8AWG-1/0
3ea Black/Red Pair 1’ 4AWG cables with lugs
1ea Plywood DIY enclosure
2ea Mini Tie-down straps
5ft 10AWG wire with 5/16” lugs
100ft 12AWG 12/2 Solar extension cord.
6pr Solar MC4 Connectors
1ea 14, 12, 10AWG crimper
1ea 8AWG-0/0 crimper
4pr 3/8”-4AWG lugs
The box design initially had the component on a vertical panel extending upward from the battery box. I realized this would somewhat unwieldy trying to put it into a vehicle for portable operation. I then made a two shelf design.
Two by two feet might be a little hard to get into the back seat of a vehicle and even into some boots/trunks, so I experimented with downsizing it to 24”w x 16”d x 16”h. This makes it more portabl. I built a 9” tall stand (table) to bring the box up off the floor and I just happened to have a flat dolly of perfect dimension to hold the box should I want to move it around.
There’s a picture of the components while I plan the layout. I could have gone with min-ANL fuse blocks to protect the PV Charge Controller and the 12V distro block but the ANL fuse blocks came in a package of 3.
So the final design the cabinet size is 16”h x 23”w. You can see the final assembly of the electronics shelf in the background.
I hate cutting out keyholes so there are only three in the bottom which will allow me to strap up to three batteries down. Below is the final assembly, and yes there are handhold for lifting, though at 150# one’s not likely to do it by oneself. The electronics shelf is NOT attached but sits on the side rails. This allows easy access to the batteries and prevents any attempt to lift the box by the top shelf.
And how’s it working? First I topped off the new batteries with the A/C Charger. Then ran the Freezer for 6 hours off the Inverter. I was surprise, don’t know why but I was, by how quiet it was. It was 100W off a 1,000W inverter so the fans didn’t even come on. I guess I was expecting some grunting and groaning of which there was none. After six hours the meter said I still had over 30 hours left. I know it’s an educated guess by the meter and I also know that this time will vary by ambient temperature.
My next experiment was to plug in the 40V A/C charger for my Ryobi power tools and charge a nearly dead 6Ah battery. It took more power than I would have guess but of course was handled easily by the setup. Then, due to whatever demons possessed me, I plugged in my air compressor, mainly because it was sitting right next to the rig. Shocked I was to look over and see the meter indicate a 98A draw. That exceeds the nominal capacity of the Inverter. (Shades of Star Trek ran through my mind as I could hear Scotty saying, “we’re at 110%, Captain.”) I only let it run for about 30 seconds when I realized that as the pressure in the air tank increase the motor would have to work harder and draw more current. Then, in hindsight, I checked the specs on the compressor…. (wait for it)…. 1,440W!
The panels finally came in and I mounted them on my little roof. Ran 12AWG, extension cables to the work room through the roof top vent. Of course during my first real day of operation it was overcast, but now that there’s full sunlight we’re charging quite well. The thing about winter is that while the sun is lower on the horizon and there are trees in the way, those trees have all lost their leaves so the effect is minimal on the cells.
Because I didn’t have an initial intent of adding cells to this system, I mounted as I did, but as soon as I was finished and put the ladder away the CFO says, “We need more solar panels.” Two mistakes were made. First not putting the panels closer together which would have allowed for two more cells on the same row. And secondly, I have the cables/junction on top. If two more cells are added below the existing two it would be easier if all the cables were in closer proximity. This is easily fixed in the future.
Lessons learned
- The Renogy Meter was not designed to be surface mounted. I had to fashion a mount out of a plastic utility box for it.
- The Renogy Charger controller does come with a surface mount, but it needed a slight modification to be practical. I cut away the individual cable slots on the box so the controller could be more easily lifted out of the mount for securing the cables.
- Having a real crimper designed for the application is a necessity. I could never have crimped the 4AWG lugs with my small pliers-type crimper and they wouldn’t have been very secure if I did. I also destroyed my first MC4 connector and the second connector pulled loose with the first tug. The two crimpers I purchased were a very good investment and I wish I had bought them earlier for other projects.
- Plan for future expansion even if you don’t think you’ll need it. Mount the panels as if you’re going to add more later and allow room on the electronics area for adding other devices or upgrades to a bigger inverter or charger.
- Though I knew the dimensions, the various components were bigger than I had imagined, so leave extra space.
- It is so eerily quiet when in operation. I had expected at least a little humming, grunting or groaning.
More panels and more uses will be added over time. The outside security lights, the workroom lights, my ham radio station and other utility functions.