The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: gunman42782 on September 02, 2008, 12:53:12 PM
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I have always defended Wolff ammo. I have never had a problem with the stuff, and I figured those who did just did not clean their stinking guns enough. I seen two guys I know shooting their ARs that had a fired cartridge case stick in the chamber, both of them happening on the same day! I attributed it to the fact these two young guys like to make their ARs sound like M16s, and I also did not figure they were as particular about cleaning as I am. Well, I reckon it had to happen, the same thing happened to me today! Took the old AR out, shot 60 rounds of it at a leasurely pace, no rapid fire stuff. Put the gun down and shot 200 rounds through my 10/22 and MK2. Went back to the AR, fired two rounds, and blam, the second cartridge stuck in the chamber. That was the end of ole Tim's shooting for today! When I got back to the house a cleaning rod knocked it right out, but this would have more than sucked if it would have been a self defense/combat type situation! This is the new polymer coated Wolff stuff. By the way, this was the very first time my AR has had a stoppage of any kind, and it dang sure is ammo related, not the gun! I only bought a small stockpile of Wolff ammo to supplement my reloaded ammo, but I rekon I will stick with my reloads from now on!
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Just use it at the range and you'll be ok. I'll use wolff for practice but my go-to mags are loaded with top quality brass.
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Just use it at the range and you'll be ok. I'll use wolff for practice but my go-to mags are loaded with top quality brass.
Typically you get what you pay for, but I've seen a lot of happy reviews of Wolff products on MidwayUSA.
This is the new polymer coated Wolff stuff. By the way, this was the very first time my AR has had a stoppage of any kind, and it dang sure is ammo related, not the gun! I only bought a small stockpile of Wolff ammo to supplement my reloaded ammo, but I rekon I will stick with my reloads from now on!
I might suggest that if you take your AR and any other gun, you shoot your reloads first, then your other gun, then go back to your AR and the Wolff just to clear out what remaining ammo you have and at a time when you're near finished shooting, so if you have a problem, it doesn't ruin your entire range session. Also, try some of there steel case ammo. It might be that the polymer stuff just sticks in the chamber.
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I believe the polymer coated cases are steel. I read that it was supposed to eliminate the problem of the chamber getting gummed up by laquered steel cases. I've never used a single round of steel cased ammo in any of my guns and don't plan on it. Stuff like that was made during WWII in the U.S. when brass was too scarce and they were desperate for an emergency substitute. If things ever get that bad, like it's WWIII, then I'll use it but only if I have too.
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gunman,
Thanks for your post. Good information and timely for me.
I'm with Jumbofrank on this one.
I used a case of Wolf 9mm without problem shooting in my P226. But our range now bans the use of Wolf ammo period.
I noticed on Ammoman there is some Prvi Partisan ammo labeled Wolf. I have had great luck with Prvi Partisan .223 ammo. I bought a case of it marked Prvi Partisan. It has a brass case, is noncorrosive, and reloadable. I understand that the US Army is buying from them as well. So, I guess it depends on which Wolf ammo you are talking about.
BTW, Jumbofrank, I have shot and had reloaded some of the WWII tin case .45 ammo over the years. It all worked in sub guns and M1911s -- recall that I spent 27+ years on active duty with the Army. I do not recommend reloading that tin case stuff -- I worry that it could scratch your die.
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If your AR is chambered for .223 Wolf will stick, if its a 5,56 chamber it wont 99.9 % of the time,the .223 has tighter tolerence even tho the steel wont expand like brass tolerences are tighter. it should only be used for training anyway.
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I'm glad DRTV saves posts. Here's my story on Wolf .223 in my Sig 556. It was the ONLY ammo that gave me issues. I know some love it, but even at the range I want it to feed, lock the bolt back on the last round, and work as designed. I could even hear the difference between Wolf and Wally-World Rem. I staggered rounds in the mag and when the Wolf came up, it would FTFeed.
Plus, Gunney Ermey yelled at me. ;) Its on the post below.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=1619.0
Me and a partner have split 1000rd. blocks of PMC from Midway 3 times. It's worked everytime, and I just don't shoot Wolf anymore.
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If your AR is chambered for .223 Wolf will stick, if its a 5,56 chamber it wont 99.9 % of the time,the .223 has tighter tolerence even tho the steel wont expand like brass tolerences are tighter. it should only be used for training anyway.
My AR is a 5.56.
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If your AR is chambered for .223 Wolf will stick, if its a 5,56 chamber it wont 99.9 % of the time,the .223 has tighter tolerence even tho the steel wont expand like brass tolerences are tighter. it should only be used for training anyway.
I've never seen an AR that was just .223. Every one I've seen was either marked 5.56mm or 5.56mm/.223. Maybe someone makes an aftermarket .223 barrel for them but I haven't seen that either. 5.56mm in a .223 chamber is a SAAMI-listed dangerous combination anyway.
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BTW, Jumbofrank, I have shot and had reloaded some of the WWII tin case .45 ammo over the years. It all worked in sub guns and M1911s -- recall that I spent 27+ years on active duty with the Army. I do not recommend reloading that tin case stuff -- I worry that it could scratch your die.
Thank you for you service. You're a better man than I to last that long. My friend Timmy used cut off pieces of the WWII steel cases to sleeve the chamber of one of his MAG-1 Carbines so he could shoot .45 ACP out of it. I don't know how well that worked but it's a real thumper in .45 Win Mag. You can sure tell it's not a .30 Carbine when you shoot those babies. ;D It didn't take much for me to have a bruised shoulder the next day either.
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I've never seen an AR that was just .223. Every one I've seen was either marked 5.56mm or 5.56mm/.223. Maybe someone makes an aftermarket .223 barrel for them but I haven't seen that either. 5.56mm in a .223 chamber is a SAAMI-listed dangerous combination anyway.
Right, the wylde can shoot either, true 5.56 chambers are marked just that, the 556/223s are 223s. If we are talking about .223 Remington SAAMI-spec chambers in an AR15, OH NO!
Do NOT use such a chambering if you EVER plan on shooting any military NATO 5.56 ammo, which happens to be only the most common, least expensive and most widely used AR15 cartridge available in all the world. In other words, NEVER buy/use a SAAMI-spec chamber in a battle rifle, especially if the barrel and chamber are chromed, as you cannot fix it!
Here's the problem. Many NATO cartridges have bullets that will become jammed into the rifling of a SAAMI chambering (the throat is too short). This is VERY DANGEROUS, for a great number of reasons.
Fulton Armory uses a "5.56 Match" chambering in its rifles/uppers/barrels which is a slightly modified SAAMI chamber with a tad longer throat to accommodate NATO bullets. The Fulton Armory 5.56 Match chamber allows for the safe and reliable use of all SAAMI and NATO ammo, while offering the accuracy potential of the SAAMI chamberings with match commercial cartridges. Remember, there's often a large difference between bolt guns and military rifles. This particularly true for the 5.56 vs .223; Bushmasters are 5.56 chambers. 5.56s were designed for full auto and let the gas escape between the round and chamber to help with ejection, the tight 223 chamber is for accuracy and little gas escapes, the gas and what is mixed with it coats the chamber and will cause the 223 brass to stick. I never had a wolf 223 stick in my bushy and I used the old lacquer coating and the newer polymer. I have read of Sig's being finicky about what they like . personally I shoot wolf in training in everything I have with no problems. bottom line is go with what works.
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Right, the wylde can shoot either, true 5.56 chambers are marked just that, the 556/223s are 223s. If we are talking about .223 Remington SAAMI-spec chambers in an AR15, OH NO!
Do NOT use such a chambering if you EVER plan on shooting any military NATO 5.56 ammo, which happens to be only the most common, least expensive and most widely used AR15 cartridge available in all the world. In other words, NEVER buy/use a SAAMI-spec chamber in a battle rifle, especially if the barrel and chamber are chromed, as you cannot fix it!
Here's the problem. Many NATO cartridges have bullets that will become jammed into the rifling of a SAAMI chambering (the throat is too short). This is VERY DANGEROUS, for a great number of reasons.
Fulton Armory uses a "5.56 Match" chambering in its rifles/uppers/barrels which is a slightly modified SAAMI chamber with a tad longer throat to accommodate NATO bullets. The Fulton Armory 5.56 Match chamber allows for the safe and reliable use of all SAAMI and NATO ammo, while offering the accuracy potential of the SAAMI chamberings with match commercial cartridges. Remember, there's often a large difference between bolt guns and military rifles. This particularly true for the 5.56 vs .223; Bushmasters are 5.56 chambers. 5.56s were designed for full auto and let the gas escape between the round and chamber to help with ejection, the tight 223 chamber is for accuracy and little gas escapes, the gas and what is mixed with it coats the chamber and will cause the 223 brass to stick. I never had a wolf 223 stick in my bushy and I used the old lacquer coating and the newer polymer. I have read of Sig's being finicky about what they like . personally I shoot wolf in training in everything I have with no problems. bottom line is go with what works.
No problems with my SIG, eats Wolf like no tomorrow. Just put 100+ rounds through it, including waits between rounds as I hiked down to the 100 yard targets and back. I use crappy, used, pawn shop mags too. If it runs with those and that ammo, it will run with anything I figure.
I've also shot Rem green box, Win white box, Ultramax, et al. Also some surplus from various sources. So far, not one FTE or FTF. Nice.
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All very good safety related points.
Made me go back and look at the book that came with my .223 single shot rifle just for verification of what I thought I knew.
It says basically: DO NOT FIRE 5.56 MARKED AMMUNITION IN THIS RIFLE. USE ONLY .223 REM because of extreme chamber pressure issues related to chamber tolerances.
So if I am understanding this correctly, and for other AR novices (like me), you can shoot either 5.55 or .223 in a chamber marked "5.56", but, you can only shoot .223 in a ".223 marked" chamber.
Right?
Thanks.
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I just checked out the Wolff .223 on Midway and the reviews aren't as good as I thought. I must have confused it with the 7.62x39 and 5.45 and those are reasonably good, but you're shooting them out of AKs and non-ARs, so maybe Wolff just doesn't know how to make an AR happy.
I have read of Sig's being finicky about what they like . personally I shoot wolf in training in everything I have with no problems. bottom line is go with what works.
My P226 just does not seem to like Rem. UMC 115gr MC (FMJ). I will cycle the rounds, but it never activates the slide stop when the last round is out. I works perfectly with some other brands, especially defensive ammo. So this is probably accurate.
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My P226 just does not seem to like Rem. UMC 115gr MC (FMJ). I will cycle the rounds, but it never activates the slide stop when the last round is out. I works perfectly with some other brands, especially defensive ammo. So this is probably accurate.
Had the same problem once with federal match ammo in a 1911. It cycled fine but would not lock the slide after the last shot.
I went to a lighter recoil spring and the problem was solved. The spring was just a hair too strong to facilitate full rearward slide travel with the lighter powered ammo.
8)
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All very good safety related points.
Made me go back and look at the book that came with my .223 single shot rifle just for verification of what I thought I knew.
It says basically: DO NOT FIRE 5.56 MARKED AMMUNITION IN THIS RIFLE. USE ONLY .223 REM because of extreme chamber pressure issues related to chamber tolerances.
So if I am understanding this correctly, and for other AR novices (like me), you can shoot either 5.55 or .223 in a chamber marked "5.56", but, you can only shoot .223 in a ".223 marked" chamber.
Right?
RIGHT!!!!!!!!
Thanks.
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In the 1950's, the US military adopted the metric system of measurement and uses metric measurements to describe ammo. However, the US commercial ammo market typically used the English "caliber" measurements when describing ammo. "Caliber" is a shorthand way of saying "hundredths (or thousandths) of an inch." For example, a fifty caliber projectile is approximately fifty one-hundredths (.50) of an inch and a 357 caliber projectile is approximately three-hundred and fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch. Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223 chambers, be unsafe to fire.
The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either. Though the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles. Military M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others, have the M16-spec chamber and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition.
Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally designed for bolt-action rifles. Commercial SAAMI-specification .223 chambers have a much shorter throat or leade and less freebore than the military chamber. Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000 psi or more.
The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as that is what is usually stamped on military barrels. Some commercial AR manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled ".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which provides for increased accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability, especially with hot-loaded military ammo. A few AR manufacturers use an in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber. Many mis-mark their barrels too, which further complicates things. You can generally tell what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings, if any, on the barrel, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure.
Typical Colt Mil-Spec-type markings: C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7
Typical Bushmaster markings: B MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 HBAR
DPMS marks their barrels ".223", though they actually have 5.56 chambers.
Olympic Arms marks their barrels with "556", with some additionally marked "SS" or "SUM." This marking is used on all barrels, even older barrels that used .223 chambers and current target models that also use .223 chambers. Non-target barrels made since 2001 should have 5.56 chambers.
Armalite typically doesn't mark their barrels. A2 and A4 models had .223 chambers until mid-2001, and have used 5.56 chambers since. The (t) models use .223 match chambers.
Rock River Arms uses the Wylde chamber specs on most rifles, and does not mark their barrels.
Most other AR manufacturers' barrels are unmarked, and chamber dimensions are unknown
Always check with the maker to be sure what you are buying .
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The only Wolf ammo that I've ever used was for the 9x18 cartridge. I had two boxes of the wolf and two boxes of Hungarian made MFS. I was using a CZ82 and a Makarov. The wolf ammo seemed to be under powered and there were FTF in both pistols with the wolf, but not the MFS.
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In the 1950's, the US military adopted the metric system of measurement and uses metric measurements to describe ammo. However, the US commercial ammo market typically used the English "caliber" measurements when describing ammo. "Caliber" is a shorthand way of saying "hundredths (or thousandths) of an inch." For example, a fifty caliber projectile is approximately fifty one-hundredths (.50) of an inch and a 357 caliber projectile is approximately three-hundred and fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch. Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223 chambers, be unsafe to fire.
The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either. Though the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles. Military M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others, have the M16-spec chamber and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition.
Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally designed for bolt-action rifles. Commercial SAAMI-specification .223 chambers have a much shorter throat or leade and less freebore than the military chamber. Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000 psi or more.
The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as that is what is usually stamped on military barrels. Some commercial AR manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled ".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which provides for increased accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability, especially with hot-loaded military ammo. A few AR manufacturers use an in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber. Many mis-mark their barrels too, which further complicates things. You can generally tell what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings, if any, on the barrel, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure.
Typical Colt Mil-Spec-type markings: C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7
Typical Bushmaster markings: B MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 HBAR
DPMS marks their barrels ".223", though they actually have 5.56 chambers.
Olympic Arms marks their barrels with "556", with some additionally marked "SS" or "SUM." This marking is used on all barrels, even older barrels that used .223 chambers and current target models that also use .223 chambers. Non-target barrels made since 2001 should have 5.56 chambers.
Armalite typically doesn't mark their barrels. A2 and A4 models had .223 chambers until mid-2001, and have used 5.56 chambers since. The (t) models use .223 match chambers.
Rock River Arms uses the Wylde chamber specs on most rifles, and does not mark their barrels.
Most other AR manufacturers' barrels are unmarked, and chamber dimensions are unknown
Always check with the maker to be sure what you are buying .
I saw most of this posted word for word somewhere else, but then another place says there are minor differences in the dimensions of the cartridges. The military caliber suppossedly uses thicker brass. That would make the neck wider unless the bullet is skinnier. Other than any physical differences there may or may not be on the outside, thicker brass reduces the internal capacity and raises pressures. They also measure chamber pressure differently, in a different part of the chamber. I think they said using 5.56mm in a .223 chamber could raise the pressure by 20,000 psi. I wonder if neck tension contributes to that. I have yet to locate dimensional drawings showing any difference between the two cartridges, just the chambers. And if anyone is worried about .223 Mini-14s, from what I've read they're actually 5.56mm chambers even when marked as .223. Anyone not confused by now raise their hand.
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Youre right Jumbofrank, the 2 best resources for the AR is ammo oricle on AR15.com and Maryland AR 15 shooters site. There are so many variables it is confusing. Thats why I stick with the AK. But I am considering another AR in a larger caliber , perhaps .308 . Im still checking on uppers and what I need to match uppers with lowers.
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I would only use wolf in AK-47 type guns. They have bigger tolerances and are made for wolf-type ammo. AR's aren't. ... :-\
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has any one ever seen any of the wolf ammo fail to extract from an ak?
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has any one ever seen any of the wolf ammo fail to extract from an ak?
NO
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I had the same problem ! DO NOT USE WOLFF AMMO ON YOUR AR. :-[