The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Building America's Rifle => Topic started by: les snyder on May 10, 2017, 11:29:58 AM
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recently I've become fascinated with short barrel ARs....pic is of my latest, a 7" 5.56 AR pistol with a LAW folding stock adapter, my idea of a personal defensive weapon PDW... this is a proof of concept project, and with the muzzle blast it produces, will most likely be replaced with either a 10.5" 5.56 or an 8" 9mm barrel....depends on how much accuracy I get with the test platforms...if you build something like this, be sure to add a hand stop...mine is a piece of 1/2" aluminum with a shoulder turned that fits the fore end slots and attaches with a button head cap screw and rail attachment plate
(http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/LesSnyder/001_zpstfh4ed2h.jpg) (http://s825.photobucket.com/user/LesSnyder/media/001_zpstfh4ed2h.jpg.html)
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My opinion ?
Stick with 5.56 .
Pistol caliber doesn't save you any size or weight for a significant decrease in performance.
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My opinion ?
Stick with 5.56 .
Pistol caliber doesn't save you any size or weight for a significant decrease in performance.
I agree.
Going with a pistol caliber in a gun this size is really no advantage....might as well just shoot a 9mm pistol (and use the weight savings to carry more mags and ammo).
IMHO, the whole idea of this type weapon is to get a rifle caliber in as small a package as possible for portable firepower.
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Yes, I don't get the whole pistol caliber carbine fad.
They were proven inadequate in full auto which is why we got the AK and the M-1 carbine and sub guns went away.
The only possible advantage is 30 rounds instead of 17 in a Glock.
But they are still 30 inadequate pistol rounds in the same package that could be rifle rounds at twice the velocity.
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I agree.
Going with a pistol caliber in a gun this size is really no advantage....might as well just shoot a 9mm pistol (and use the weight savings to carry more mags and ammo).
IMHO, the whole idea of this type weapon is to get a rifle caliber in as small a package as possible for portable firepower.
I agree 100%. It should be a 5.56mm, or possibly larger, but not smaller. If you want a 9mm pistol you could get one of the many plastic fantastic models on the market.
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As to the OP, Les that is a fine gun, and about as compact as you could get and still have a serviceable rifle round.
And I do get the muzzle blast issue (I have a 7" Pistol configuration also) and even with the linear comp directing much of the blast forward, it is still a noise-beast.
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I'm a member at an indoor range with a 100yd rifle bay... did not get to shoot the 7" or the 10.5" for groups at 50 and 100 as the bay was undergoing maintenance... will try next week... that will be the deciding factor of the 7 or 10.5....I'm not sure I can get under 6" groups with the short barrel at that distance...the pistol does function so far with an H1 buffer, but have less than 80 rounds through it
I have an extra Glock lower for a 9mm PCC and extra 16" barrel that I may chop to around 8"... well, just because I can
re: pistol caliber carbines.... they are a lot of fun to shoot... I have a 16" and a 10.5 on my SBR...as you can use them for USPSA competition on a very frequent basis... I can shoot 3 matches a month within about a 1 1/4 hr driving time....exceptional accuracy combined with an optical sight provides superb hit quality, with relatively cheap ammo ... I'd use the same amount if I shot the match with my G34
my original design criteria was to over match an AK's accuracy at 100m with as small a platform as possible....
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Fun ?
Well, that trumps my argument. ;D
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The cheap ammo is probably the most valid point, IMHO....followed by the "because I can" and "fun" options (there's always that). ;D
*My comments weren't meant to dissuade anyone from building what they want. I tend to view things from a practical/defense perspective and was merely offering that side of the coin.
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What Pegleg said ! LOL
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Pistol caliber carbines are great when you compare them to pistols shooting the same ammo. You get:
1. Higher velocity
2. Flatter trajectory
3. Approximately 1/3 more muzzle energy
4. Increased accuracy
Comparing a PCC to a rifle caliber carbine, the pistol caliber doesn't stack up well.
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Les, I also like that folding stock set-up. It would definitely allow a wider range of stealth carry methods.
A few weekends ago we took our camper over to a nearby state park for a two day outing. I found a backpack for $30 at wallymart that was just long enough to accommodate my AR pistol, four loaded mags, and two days change of clothes. Backpacks have become a common thing (I see folks carrying them everywhere) so having the back-up firepower basically hidden in plain sight was a comfort.
I did not shoulder carry it everywhere, just kept it either in the camper at night or in the vehicle by day as a back-up to my sidearm.
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So I'm a little behind the time here. I kept staring at the picture wondering where the recoil spring was and how this worked. DUH. Finally have time to look this up and "larn" myself.
Neat little attachment, the LAW Folding Stock Adapter. I really want one for my "backpack" rifle.
Neat little $259 attachment. Wow. Hopefully there will be competition and the price will come down.
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Brownell's has that stock adapter on sale for $209.99 which still isn't cheap. It adds 1.3" to the length of pull and 8.5 oz. of weight.
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Alf... my LAW was $200 and have been told they were on sale for about $180... they have the advantage of making the length of pull with a typical pistol buffer tube that allows you the shoulder and get nose to charging handle....
PegLeg... what kind of muzzle device do you have on your pistol?...I built a flash can for the 7" and have a LeVang on my 10.5 MK18... may try a linear on the 7"... the fire ball, even in daylight, is spectacular
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I have the LeVang on one of my pistols and the shock and awe is... well awesome. The noise and flash alone will give a perp 2nd thoughts about any further engagement.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-KVjG2z6/0/4777eea6/X2/FreezeFrames3-X2.png)
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PegLeg... what kind of muzzle device do you have on your pistol?...I built a flash can for the 7" and have a LeVang on my 10.5 MK18... may try a linear on the 7"... the fire ball, even in daylight, is spectacular
The one I have is very similar to the Levang, and is a unit I bought through a guy in Arizona. He sells through ebay and I think I paid something like $35 total. He does limited runs of his items so you have to keep an eye for when has a batch ready. I want to get one for my carbine (the brake I have on it now has an ear-shattering side blast).
I know ammo has a lot to do with muzzle flash. I was shooting some Wolf Poly coated ammo and the flash in afternoon lighting was not too terrible (I want to video it for another perspective). I have not shot it in low-light yet but want to soon.
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got a chance to bench both the 7" and 10.5" pistols today...stuck a 4x scope on and shot at 50 and 100yd indoors off a rest.... results surprised me as both shot about the same... around 3" at 100yd with 69 Sierra Match Kings....USPSA "A" zone with 55 Wolf and iron sights (bad trigger too)... I still will build a 9" upper for my 9mm
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OK it is not America's rifle... but I got lazy and just bought a PSA 7" 9mm upper for my "well it kinda looks like an MP5" on a spare PSA(NFA) lower... these things are addictive
(http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/LesSnyder/001_zps2n4xe6ek.jpg) (http://s825.photobucket.com/user/LesSnyder/media/001_zps2n4xe6ek.jpg.html)
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just a follow up to the original 5.56 pistol, and the problem with excessive muzzle flash... using H322 and 69 SMK I got a significant reduction in muzzle flash... may well be a keeper...