The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on May 08, 2020, 08:38:08 PM
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Did you ever spend 20 minutes explaining some technical detail, load formula or what ever, get all done and hear,
"That legal for deer ?"
That's the stuff I want too talk about in this thread.
No one I know is interested in guns beyond, "Gittin a deah."
That's nice, try not to blow your face off with that "Widow maker" Winchester shotgun.
The stuff I'm getting into is more like this :
John Moses Browning,
Yeah, he built the best semi automatic pistol ever.
No, he didn't. He invented what came to be the idea of the semi auto, he invented the most "elegant" form of locked breech , but it was not the perfection it's alleged to be . it's a 1st generation Semi auto, and even Browning himself knew it could be improved, which is what he was doing at his death with the High Power. Recalling JMB for the 1911 is an insult to the man who was personally responsible for the major products of 3 separate companies, 2 of which owed their existence to him . Not only did he provide the majority of Winchesters products for 20 years, his 1899 pocket pistol saved FN from destruction by DWM, it invented the pocket pistol market we know today and defined what a pistol should be.
But lately in several posts I've mentioned things about old guns that didn't use bolt handles .
Winchesters, ;D
Because not only was JMB a freak Ubermenschen of firearms design (30/30 cartridge is longer than the receiver it loads in to.) He was also a royal SOB ;D The President of Winchester wanted to pay a lump sum like always, but Johnny B got a taste of "Royalties" from his little FN pistol . While they discussed it back and forth, Winchester lawyers (Very VERY, good patent specialists) went ahead and did up the patent work, why not, he'll take the money.
Only he didn't. ::)
Johnny took his butt, his guns, and his VERY well written patents and made deals with FN and Remington. (Yes, the EXACT same guns ;D )
So Winchester, a company with very embarrassed Patent department , and a sudden urgent need to get into the new market was forbidden from using any direct connection to operate the bolt.
Hence the Winchester 07/1910 plunger charger, and the model 11 butter churn action.
That legal fer deah ?
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The first day of deer season should be a state holiday in Michigan. So many people call in sick that a lot of businesses aren't running at full capacity, so they may as well shut down for the day. The government should be behind making it a holiday too since hunters spend millions of dollars in the state ever year. I think half of the gun owners I know hunt deer and the other half are just into guns for other reasons. Thankfully I've never had that kind of conversation with anyone. I don't hunt anything anymore but I've been fascinated with guns since I was a kid. There's always so much more to learn and it's not all about deer hunting unless you're a Fudd.
Nearly all semi-auto pistols with a locked breech use some variation of Browning's tilt-barrel lockup, but they've gone linkless like the Hi-Power, and they lock up on the barrel hood instead of using lugs, which I believe started with SIG. The few rotary barrel locking pistols owe their design to something equally ancient. I can't remember it off the top of my head but I think it was a Steyr Model 1912. Something around the 1911's time. And no new Borchardt or Luger-type toggle actions are being made AFAIK. It's basically tilting barrels everywhere you look. You could just as easily say Dieudonné Saive invented the best semi-auto pistol. Wasn't the Hi-Power the first to have a double-column magazine (or the first one that worked)? And where would modern pistols be without that? It's amazing how similar the mags for other pistols look too, like my Para .45s for example.
I knew that Winchester made centerfire rifles that used a plunger like their .22 caliber Model 1903 but I didn't know it had anything to do with JMB and his patents. I did know the part about him wanting royalties instead of a lump sum for the shotgun design, and walking when Winchester said no. Bad news for Winchester but good news for Remington and FN. Savage made them for about 20 years too. I had no idea the .30-30 cartridge was longer than the receiver it goes in. I think my nephew has my dad's old .30-30 so it's probably with my brother's guns. My brother calls his son his boomerang child, he threw him out but he came back. Now he can't get rid of him. The next time my other brother shows me his new toys I'll ask him to get his .32 Win. Special out so I can compare the M94 action length to the cartridge.
Don't forget, one of Browning's .50 cal. machine guns sits atop every M1 tank. A single tank has more computing power than NASA used to land men on the moon, but uses a machine gun that was designed shortly after WWI and based on his earlier 1917 and 1919 machine guns, scaled up to .50 BMG. And I don't know how many cartridges he invented but 5 that are still in use today come to mind. He was a freakin' genius of firearms design, the likes of which the world has never seen and probably never will again.
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I started reading your post and decided it was one I'd have to reply as I read so I don't forget what I wanted to say. ;D
It was JMB himself who ditched the link on the Hi Power, he was also the one who ditched his own .45ACP in favor of George Luger's 9mm.
There are other locking methods, as you say, The Beretta Storm pistol uses the rotating barrel, Not sure off hand who came up with that, but Savage used it in their 1907 .45 Trials model, Then there's wedge locking like in the Beretta 92, and the one I'm DYING to check out, the gas delayed Steyr GB. But they are all more expensive to manufacture than the Browning system.
Which is why the wonderful Steyr and SIG entries got beat by that pompous shovel making A Hole. ;D
May hate to admit it, but no other gun on the market can surpass the Glock as a service pistol.
As for double stack Mags, the first one of those was the Savage 1907, I got one of those, a little 10 round 32. They had Bat Masterson, Buffalo Bill among other endorsements , TEN SHOTS, QUICK !
Yeah, celebrity endorsements were a thing that far back. ;D
Cartridges, .25 Acp, 380, 45 ACP, I don't recall if JMB , the Ordinance Dept, or a combination came up with .50 BMG
Guns, Browning 1903 .380 was the US Generals pistol till the 80's, the pistol we call the 1911, Winchester 92, 94, 95 lever actions,
1917 Machine gun, 50, MG, ( 2 of those. The first was watercooled, but he up graded that when he did the .30.) 1919 air cooled MG, the BAR and the High Power.
One thing about Browning, he wasn't a "designer". He was a builder/ maker. He'd show up at Winchester with a prototype gun and after that it was up to other people to figure out how to manufacture it.
Look up Edmond Pugsley sometime . Not only was he the kid who brought Browning back to Winchester, but he was also the most important figure in the history of the BAR .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkMc8IurfAY&t=1979s
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Gaston Glock was smart enough to take a little of this and a little of that, eliminate a lot of little fiddly bits, and come up with something that works better than most of the competition, at that time or since. Not bad for a curtain rod and knife manufacturer. I think he made sewing machines too but maybe that was someone else. He wasn't even a gun builder or designer, and then he was top of the heap, king of the mountain.
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Glock's big advantage was he was a plastics guy.
That was how he beat out Steyr in the Austrian trials.
The GB was every bit as good a pistol, but manufacturing had to be modified for completely new materials,
while Glock already had it in place and years of experience so could charge a lower price.
Same with Mattel making M-16 stocks. If they did it's logical since they were the leader in plastics tech at that time.
The AK is another example. The milled frame AK is nothing to brag about, the only made it because they couldn't get the stampings right for what it was SUPPOSED to be. What we know are actually AK -49 and AKM models.
The Chinese used milled receivers at first as well so they could be making SOMETHING until they got stamping figured out.
There will not be any more change in firearms actions, Caseless ammo is a dead end .
The future is in optics, materials, and 3 D printing.
I fact, now that I think about it it would be worth some ones time to start blue printing, and 3D printing full scale working replica guns, like FG-42, or StG - 44 , AR's assorted pistols . It doesn't matter that they aren't real guns, when the materials catch up they will be ready to go.
That's really what Hiram Maxim did, he came up with a workable gun, then waited for technology to catch up with smokeless powder.
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The first day of deer season should be a state holiday in Michigan. So many people call in sick that a lot of businesses aren't running at full capacity, so they may as well shut down for the day. The government should be behind making it a holiday too since hunters spend millions of dollars in the state ever year. I think half of the gun owners I know hunt deer and the other half are just into guns for other reasons. Thankfully I've never had that kind of conversation with anyone. I don't hunt anything anymore but I've been fascinated with guns since I was a kid. There's always so much more to learn and it's not all about deer hunting unless you're a Fudd.
It is in PA. People don’t believe me when I say the schools in PA are all closed on the first day of buck. Has always been that way, so it’s normal to us. Even though I’ve never hunted, I always supported an extra day off from school. ;D
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Minnesota Fishing Opener is a holiday - A National Holiday! And, it will stay that way as long as the mamby pamby politicians can't win against DNR while passing legislation in an attempt to gain the "Mother" vote. Honestly, mothers don't mind, but someone always needs to try and make an issue of it.