The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Building America's Rifle => Topic started by: ExurbanKevin on June 18, 2020, 03:49:04 PM
-
I had a blast talking with Micheal this week about this build.
(https://www.quietlyarmed.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/A900B3CF-ACF7-40D4-83DE-4240D716EBE8.jpg)
Parts list: Aero Precision lower, upper and mount, JP Rifles BCG, Faxon Barrel, Mission First stock, Ergo grip, Magpul BIUS, Sig Sauer Suppressor (not the titanium one) and a Swampfox 1-4 low power variable. Total cost retail (without the can): $2300.
Full writeup on the build and the thought processes behind it will show up next month on the Ammoman blog.
-
I believe as you have shown with your low power variable optic (LPVO) scope selection that that the 3 gunners have done a service to further the development of the Cooper practical rifle concept....I started shooting serious (for me) 3 gun in 1995 with my first of four North Carolina Tactical matches put on by SMSgt Kyle Lamb...at the time, my sight was a 1x holographic sight, and pretty typical... but in the next year or so, some of the guys like Jeff Cramblit were playing with 1-4 power optics, and more of the top name shooters were paying attention... during the 2005 Ft Benning 3 gun Challenge, my 4x32 ACOG was handled by quite a few National Guard and Reserve NCO's looking to equip their troops gearing up for Iraq, but by 2010 a fixed sight 4x was sadly looking out of date on a multi gun game rifle, even though the Bindon Aiming Concept worked well on close targets, and it's ruggedness and bullet drop compensation was not really appreciated in lieu of the additional cost.... and by the last of those matches I shot in 2010 all the top shooters were using illuminated 1x4/6 LPVO,
my first attempt at a Scout Rifle was with a Mini 14 in the middle 80s, with the addition of a scope mount by Ranch Products that allowed a Bushnell 2 1/2x EER pistol scope to be mounted on the top of the gas block....
-
Very Nice. You tell Bonnie that it was $230? ;D
BUT: And a point I've maintained (recent article about this-don't remember where, sorry) that what it boils down to is the distinguishing characteristic of Cooper's Scout Rifle is the long relief, forward mounted scope.
“a conveniently-portable, individually-operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow on a live target of up to about 440 pounds in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target.”
A lot of rifles fit that description. Then he added that it needed to have a 1x-3x scope forward mounted. It's the scope that makes it different.
Interestingly even the Styer Scout that he approved of doesn't meet all the requirements.
BIAS: I don't like the forward mounted scope. Bad balance and heft, both carrying and shooting. A compromise in viewing. But then that's just me.
-
Never really saw the point .
Is it supposed to be a military rifle ?
Or a hunting gun ?
Because it isn't set up to do either very well.
Since the end of the Bush wars it's been an idea looking for a reason.
-
A forward mounted scope makes perfect sense on a bolt action rifle IF you can load it with stripper clips. Other than, that my "never been there, never done that'" completely irrelevant opinion aligns 100% with what Alf said. Wasn't the Steyr Scout overweight? And I don't mean in a zaftig kind of way.
-
The concept has been useless since the end of the Bush wars.
-
Since people stopped carrying rifles with built-in clip guides, sometime post-WWII anyway. Detachable mags more or less made scout rifles obsolete IMO. I don't know about scouts anywhere else but cavalry scouts are the eyes and ears of the U.S. army. Their job is to gather and share combat intelligence etc. They might be in an M3 Bradley Cavalry Fighting Vehicle or dismounted and patrolling on foot. Either way the best way to gather information on the enemy isn't by announcing their presence with gunfire and they aren't all issued suppressors. The kind of rifle they have isn't anything special, they generally carry whatever M16s and M4s are standard issue at the time. They use anti-armor weapons and pack more of them than the infantry does, but a modern day scout rifle is something like an M16A4. Slap a LPVO on it and call it good.
https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/combat/cavalry-scout.html
-
The only place it would be of any use would be in Africa where your "Safari" might run into guerilla's or poachers while hunting.
It's supposed to be a "Do it all" gun and suffers for it.
-
...I don't know about scouts anywhere else but cavalry scouts are the eyes and ears of the U.S. army. Their job is to gather and share combat intelligence etc. They might be in an M3 Bradley Cavalry Fighting Vehicle or dismounted and patrolling on foot.
The USAF has invested heavily in drones. There are gumblings in the Navy about unmanned ships. I would guess that using drones for scouts could be the next "thing" in the Army, both for airborne aerial surveillance as well as land based mechanized scouting vehicles.
-
Yes, they have a couple of different sized man-portable drones. There's a small one that you rev the motor and throw like a paper airplane, and another that launches like a water balloon slingshot. But I don't know if they're a general issue item or they're still experimenting with them. Not to mention Global Hawks, Predators, etc.
-
I'm pretty sure the little drones ARE in general use.
I don't know how far they've gotten on unmanned ships, but if I were young I would not plan on being a fighter pilot.
I think the ones currently serving will be the last ones the US uses.
Planes have been capable of pilot killing maneuvers for decades, now remote control is catching up.
-
Wandering back on topic, ;D
I'm watching a video of Ian McCollum shooting a 2 gun match with a Garand, set up with a scout style scope.
It occurred to me that the whole idea was a preview of the direction modern optics have taken.
How would you get Aim Point effect if Aim Point hasn't been invented yet ?
-
Tom... possibly the Armson OEG black field dot sight from South Africa...I don't remember when I got my original Aimpoint...whether I had seen an Armson prior to that or not (I still have the sight)
looking back when I first stuck an EER 2.5x pistol scope on a Mini 14 shortly after I read of Cooper's Scout Rifle, it now occurs to me that Cooper was most likely approaching my age (73), and possibly suffering from cataract growth, and age related vision concerns as I am... the scope put the sight picture in a convenient depth of focus for those with distance vision, and did not require alignment of rear-front-target required by iron sights... having the sight that far down from your eye, greatly improved your situational awareness by not blocking a large portion of your field of view... much like the use of the Bindon Aiming Concept (with a bright fiber optic lit center aiming point) with a fixed power magnified ACOG.... with which you can track a moving target, or moving rifle, the brain tracks movement on 1x ,and when the movement stops the brain causes the image to then become 4x (on a 4x32)
or he just borrowed the idea from the Germans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlFGc9fjkg
most of the low powered variable optic scopes (LPVO) have an illuminated center dot that functions similar to the ACOG, and probably cheaper
-
<snip>
Full writeup on the build and the thought processes behind it will show up next month on the Ammoman blog.
I was perusing that Ammoman blog for the first time. I had no idea that submarine targets existed.
-
That K-98 is nothing to brag about LOL.
500 yard precision from the scope isn't very impressive on a rifle with 1500+ yards Iron sights.
-
Tom... I've shot only one K98, and that was at 200m, back when I had pretty good vision... the triangular "barley corn" front sight was, for me, a terrible sight for shooting a relative small target (IHMSA chicken at 200m)
-
Tom... I've shot only one K98, and that was at 200m,
HOLY CRAP !
Finally something I have more experience with than you . ;D
I've shot quite a few Mausers, not just the 8 mm.
Paul Mauser was right, 7X57 mm is the best Military rifle cartridge of the age.
-
a good friend had a 7x57 in a Ruger 77... he took a lot of Georgia deer with it
-
The 6.5 Swede, is a beautiful shooter, but for actual military use the 7X57 is better since it's more effective in machine guns, and that interchangeability is important for militaries.
Ever notice that every single non neutral country that adopted smaller calibers, US Navy, Italy, Japan, all changed to over 7mm at the first opportunity ?
That's why I have no use for 5.56.
-
As of 2019 USSOCOM was still using the Puma AE (All Environment) small Unmanned Aircraft System (UAS). But there were still no scouts using a scout rifle AFAIK.
https://www.army-technology.com/projects/puma-unmanned-aircraft-system-us/
I still have 20/20 vision in both eyes* but I'm far-sighted. On a good day I can read exit signs on the freeway from about 1/4 of a mile, but if I read something with regular size print I usually have to hold it away from me to focus on it. I have reading glasses that focus at roughly a foot and a half but don't need computer glasses. At this point I'm wondering if an EER scope would work better than one with standard eye relief, not that I'm actually going to buy a new scope any time soon.
* I thought my vision was worse than 20/20 in my right eye but I was just looking at the part of my medical chart next to it where it said what they considered acceptable or normal, whatever it was. My right eye has a worse cataract than the left. I can't see anything but glare when the eye doctor asks me to read the eye chart while he's shining a light in my eye, but other than that no problem. I've never been able to shoot a rifle or pistol with both eyes open because both eyes are fighting for dominance. When I checked a few days ago I was left-eye dominant and I didn't know if I was going to stay that way, but right now I'm right-eye dominant again. A scout scope may or may not work better for me but I would still have to close one eye to aim.