The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: les snyder on August 22, 2020, 08:45:12 PM
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I am seriously considering the purchase of hand held night vision... what little I've read is that the current go to is a AN/PVS-14 white phosphor at one one end and a SiOnyx Aurora on the low end... can someone give me a little personal evaluation... thanks Les
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I'd like to hear some trusty worthy information on them as well.
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I'd like to know as well. I do know that the SIOnyx is digital night vision. I think it compares roughly to Gen 1.
So that's the kicker. Digital versus the tube technology. The digital NV is essentially what is in your telephone or a digital camera optimized for low light.
I think the SiOnyx is pretty good....but I'd like to hear a comparison from someone who has actual experience.
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I bought the low end FLIR monocular last year and haven't been too impressed. I realize it's the low end and I just haven't had the situation where I could really test it. It was just to play with and learn about NV.
On the bright side, I just did a Optic Planet search and I think market must have 100 times more options now than a year ago.
Let us know what you decide and how it works out.
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OK my cheapy Night Fox digital IR "night vision" arrived yesterday. How fortuitous.
So I did not expect much for $120. It doesn't focus well and is useless without the IR illuminator on. However, for out here in the woods it's good to identify a human, deer, bear or bobcat at 100 yards no problem. It's not something I like but it beats not knowing what the dogs are barking at.
There are several more that "look like" this one that have recording functions going up to $300-$400 but I suspect the IR and guts are the same. So what if they focus a little better (maybe) and can record? I went the cheapest and it does what I wanted.
The price is up a bit: https://www.amazon.com/Nightfox-Widescreen-Digital-Infrared-Binocular/dp/B01N95F8UJ/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=nightfox&qid=1598966532&refinements=p_89%3ANightFox&rnid=2528832011&sr=8-2 (https://www.amazon.com/Nightfox-Widescreen-Digital-Infrared-Binocular/dp/B01N95F8UJ/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=nightfox&qid=1598966532&refinements=p_89%3ANightFox&rnid=2528832011&sr=8-2)
Again...not great and not pleasant to look through but it sure beats nothing.
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Illuminator would be a deal killer for me.
That is 1940's technology, just smaller.
The whole point of night vision is to NOT advertise my location with a spot light.
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I'd prefer not to have the IR spotlight either. However, at this point, it's either a spotlight you can see or one you can only see with an IR chip in it.
I'd really like thermal but it's too $$$$ for now.
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So with that settled we sit and wait for the rich guys to let us know which one to save for. ;D
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PVS-14 (Gen III and +) is where it's at. There are variations of that now as I understand it, like bino vs monocular, white phosphorous etc but the Gen III stuff is WAY WAY beyond the gen I stuff in performance.
You can get the really inexpensive Gen I stuff but it requires illum of some kind. I bought a Russian gen I NV scope thing years ago because I figured "something is better than nothing". That's sort of true but if you're really worried about having to do stuff at night, saving $ by buying Gen I vs Gen III is not the way to go.
Thermal is a really nice thing to have too, but if you can only get NV or thermal, get NV first. You can spot someone hiding in bushes with thermal at least out 100 yds, but you can't walk through the woods without light if all you have is thermal, you need NV to be able to sneak around. A handheld FLIR Scout (I think FLIR is selling a "Breach" handheld that is better quality picture than the older handhelds they were selling.)
** EDIT- It's not true I guess that you NEED NV to walk around in the woods at night, but it sure helps especially if you're not a lifelong woodsman. NV is simply a huge assist in being able to step out confidently and being able to land-nav as well as see what's out there. I was more trying to say that to make the point that IR is helpful but it isn't "night vision" enough to be able to go walkabout without running into tree branches, bushes etc, not the way NV is.**
Things that camo during the day generally are also camo at night. The NV lets you see, but you still aren't the eye of Sauron seeing everything. That is, you could be walking around in the woods with your NV, but if there's a guy in camo hiding in the bushes and he's not moving, you could probably about step on top of him before you realized he's there. NV is a great tool, but it isn't magic. Woodsman and outdoor skills are still really important.
NV + an IR, now you're talking at least if you're out in the woods trying to find something hiding in there. The two together really are awesome for seeing someone out there before you're seen, especially if you're being stealthy and not making noise/light.
Things like brighteners in your clothing detergent can really blow up under night vision - don't use them and look at your night clothing under NV to make sure nothing like that happened. I've seen for instance BDUs that were washed in that and at night they look like a black and white cartoon figure in camo pattern, but much more visible in just the amplified light.
Other stuff you need in the same vein:
-you need a mounting system of some kind to wear the NV. Just to warn you, you're looking at $ for this on top of the not-cheap PVS-14 or whatever you get.
Probably the best most robust setup is a helmet with a front mount. Just warning you though $ if you haven't priced it yet.
A Crye Nightcap is another good option, it's a soft cap you wear that you strap to your head and it has the NV mount on it. It's kind of like wearing a ballcap. Maybe $150 for the NightCap and another $50-$100+ for the mount but it is less expensive and more comfortable than most helmets. But of course, you don't have any helmet protection if that's important to you.
- I would also leave room in the setup to wear clear eye pro under the NV. I have almost been badly scratched in the eye from walking into tree branches in the dark and a friend of mine (during the day) scratched his eye that way badly enough to have to go to the doctor. (this assumes you're wearing a monocular NV, thus one eye is uncovered and might be exposed)
-you need an IR laser to aim with
-be aware that there are many thousands of sets of NV gear out there, including the least expensive stuff from Bass Pro Shop etc on up to pro-grade stuff. You should train to not walk around showing light or using IR illum except very very sparingly, as even Gen I NV gear can see that. If you're using an IR laser, it only comes on the quickest shortest bit to aim and shoot, and then off it goes.
You are not the only one around who can see in the dark.
There's a company that sells this and other tactical/prepper stuff who offers training, if you're in the SE US. You can buy the gear from them and then get some hands-on experience and some good instruction from folks who have been using it awhile. I've been to a couple of those and highly recommend it (I'm going to another one of their night classes later this fall)
I would HIGHLY recommend some experienced training- not just in how the stuff works and using it, but also in things like what kinds of TTPs would you use, if you know other folks around you have NV?
(If it's ok and not against forum policy/rules, I'll say the name or provide a link.)
EDIT - I've since seen classes from other trainers listed in this subforum, so I think it's ok to post this.
Here is a link to the upcoming November NV class that I'm referring to:
https://www.jrhenterprises.com/Night-Vision-training-Midnight-Rendezvous-2020-NOV-14-SOLD-OUT-Nov142020Midnight.htm
It says SOLD OUT but you can always try to standby in case there are cancellations.
If nothing else, like the rest of your kit, you need to have practiced putting on and using it a bunch, enough so that you're at unconscious competence level with it hopefully like you are with the rest of your gear. Do some of your dryfire practice with the stuff on, can you do your reloads with NV on and without having to look at your hands?
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xsquidgator... thank you for the reply... at this point in time, I'm not really concerned with giving away my location or movement wearing NV, but rather want to extend the range of what optics I currently have... I really don't want to be looking through the 4x32 ACOG on the AR just scanning the neighborhood... I live on the corner of the block, so have 4 easy access direction with intermittent street lighting in addition to very dark alley way to observe...
I ordered a camera mount that clamps onto a small diameter rail for a mount to attach a Malkoff module 6P LED to a set of 12x50 Tasco binoculars, using the thumb screw tripod attachment on the Tasco and the adjustable clamp for the light... a trial tonight gave me a proof of concept... at least two additional blocks of observation at 12x with the unit...
this is an interim step... but at least a step... regards Les
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Any body doing anything with expedients like trail cams, or wireless cameras ?
I know some of them have NV , don't know how they would be for surveillance.
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They all seem to have IR in them. The ones that you can connect to are way expensive...$400 +. I have a couple of Solion S90's cameras which are around $110 each which you can connect to whenever you want and also get an alarm if something nearby approaches. The bonus for me is that they have a solar panel so you aren't changing batteries. To get distance you'll need (~300 to 600 yards) to have a router that has antenna connections that screw in so that you can buy an wifi extender antenna for ~$35-$100 depending on what you get.
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There's an inexpensive thing you can do that might help. As said before, Gen I stuff needs some kind of illumination to be able to see.
If you're in a static position looking out with Gen I NV, you can set up your own illum. "Illumination" means pretty much dim red lights. Something as simple as a light with a bunch of red backup-light repair tape from AutoZone, over the light, will light the area up like daytime to Gen I NV.
The "illum" can be really really dim to the naked eye and still be very effective to the early NV.
As a science experiment thing, get some (less expensive) Gen I NV and walk around your neighborhood at night with it- you'll be able to see your neighbor's security cameras because most of them use IR or dim red light to light up the area in front of the camera. When you look at a lot of home security cameras up close at night, they have some dim red LEDs lighting the area up so that the camera can see.
You can put the dim red lighting somewhere else than where you are, and see just fine. For tactical purposes of course, don't be sitting at the same place where the illumination is coming from.
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Re wireless cameras- here's one setup that works ok and is budget friendly.
I bought this one (or very close to it)
https://www.amazon.com/HeimVision-HM241-Surveillance-Weatherproof-Monitoring/dp/B07RKJDK65/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1S4Z3NFZN1LLA&dchild=1&keywords=wireless+security+camera+system&qid=1600824224&sprefix=wireless+security%2Caps%2C641&sr=8-3
It uses red LEDs to light up the area in front of the camera. To any kind of NV, even Gen I stuff, the dim red LEDs look like a floodlight at night. To the naked eye though, you have to get within maybe 30 feet or so before you can see them, and then only if you're looking for it. My neighbor has wired cameras that you can barely see this dim red light from, but put on some NV and it's like looking at a floodlight.
If you wanted to, you could use this $169 wireless camera system to detect IR illum. The clunky part of it is that the camera viewing has to be done from a 12" LCD screen- the viewing screen puts out a lot of light on its own. This camera system can "see" someone walking within about 40 feet or so of the camera, since it lights them up with the dim red LEDs.
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I posted the original question on the Equipped To Survive board and got this response from member Wiley Coyote
http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=297099#Post297099
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~$3,000
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I bought the low end FLIR monocular last year and haven't been too impressed. I realize it's the low end and I just haven't had the situation where I could really test it. It was just to play with and learn about NV.
On the bright side, I just did a Optic Planet search and I think market must have 100 times more options now than a year ago.
Let us know what you decide and how it works out.
Thanks for warning. I was just about to buy a FLIR, but now I think it's better not to buy this, but to save more money and then buy a good quality night vision device.
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Tom, nothing wrong with the brand. I just got the very low-end monocular and it's just that. Low end.
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Les, what did you end up with?