The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: CDR on March 04, 2007, 11:14:10 AM
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Hi Everyone,
I don't mean to be morbid with this header, but one of my favorite places to visit is the Smith and Wesson forums. I tend to save the more interesting topics for future reference and came across this incredible thread that I had saved a while back. It began in April '06 and is still going strong. I believe it is one of the most fascinating things I have ever read regarding handguns, self defense and defensive ammunition results. I urge everyone to invest some time reviewing this information from an individual who works in a morgue and averages 8.2 autopsies per day, 365 days per year and was at one time a police officer in Atlanta. He has experienced things none of us could imagine, nor would ever want to. However, he draws some very valuable and eye opening conclusions on handguns and the effectiveness of various calibers following his autopsies. To say his postings and responses to many excellent questions are well written and valid is an understatement. I think you will see why this is worth your time...............................http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/550103904/m/5471026821/p/1
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This is cool...
Michael - there have been lots of test results of bullets hitting fake stuff. But what if we saw more morge reports related to what actually happens when a bullet hits a human?
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Agreed wheels........just keep reading. There is some remarkably valid and fascinating information here from a completely unique perspective that reflects what really occurs when a human being is shot.
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Sad to see so many people tring to flame the guy for posting his observations.
9mm vs .45. glock vs xd... Seems like we have nothing else to talk about. Glad Michael B is here to save us by doing reports that are beyond the typical gun stuff. Along with hanging out with the occasional hottie on tv..
This was very educational. I need to practice double tapping with my .9mm. Shooting with one hand and being accurate is a lot harder than it sounds. But I am good at it.
This forum is very cool and I learn a lot - thanks to all..
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Glad you found the thread informative. It's interesting to note that the most effective handgun rounds, with respect to pure man stopping power that didn't require multiple shots, appear to be .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .357 Magnum. I sense that the .357 Magnum round may be the most effective defensive round overall, but not enough instances occurred in his observations at the morgue in Atlanta to make that final conclusion. This is simply due to the fact that the automatic pistol accounted for the vast majority of the deaths observed as revolvers are in the minority these days. But in the instances where the .357 round was observed, more often than not, a single round proved effective. Having said that, a 12 gauge shotgun remains his preferred home defense weapon, however.
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I thought it a bit weird how he would say the 9 mm did not do a very good job, but he was looking at a lot of dead people due to the 9 mm. So it obviously works. I think the guy likes to see the .45 brake bones as it did it's deed. I did not catch if he noticed the 9 mm would bounce off a rib or breast bone. He did feel you had to double tap with a 9 mm.
I am still going to carry the 9. Cheap to feed which to me means I will shoot more and have better aim. Hopefully that will pay off in a high stress situation. A .45 that is shot every where except for the intended target will do me no good. Maybe after I practice more and more, I will carry the .45 in the future.
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Hi wheels,
I think his point regarding which round did a better job was relative to stopping power with a single shot versus multiple shots. His point was that in the corpses he observed where 9mm rounds were used, more often then not, a number of repeated hits were required to cause death. Whereas with the .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .357 Magnum rounds, many of the victims he observed died with a single gun shot. The more powerful round caused significantly more damage than the 9mm round with respect to bone and tissue destruction. But like everyone always says, placement is everything and, as you said, if you can practice more with a 9mm and become proficient with that round, I don't think you would be disadvantaged if reliable hits result versus missing four times with a .45.
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hard to argue with a .45 center mass,125 .357's have been quite effective for many years as a stopper,have never been a fan of the 9mm and don't own one.there was a shooting buy the NYC police in which they shot 41 times hitting the man 19 times with 9mm hardball and he was still standing holding a wallet in his hands the cops thought was a gun,he looked like he was 150 lbs. soaking wet.over all I agree with what was said and always believed in that assesment and thats why I carry a .45 and have .45's and .357's in my house as well as a 12 gauge.
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Dumb question warning . . .
Does a 9mm HP make any difference in stopping power over the 9mm ball ammo? I can see the 9mm ball going right through someone without transmitting much of its energy, but wouldn't the HP work better at transferring the energy?
BTW, I do have a 9mm, the 56 Chevy of autos, the Browning HP. My primary is a .40 S&W w/HP rounds.
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they have since went to hollow points because of that incident,I shot a high power once and I do admit it was one sweet shooting piece,pointablity,ergonmics was great,I could not miss with that gun.my theory has always been why run them over with a sports car when you can use a kenworth.
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they have since went to hollow points because of that incident,I shot a high power once and I do admit it was one sweet shooting piece,pointablity,ergonmics was great,I could not miss with that gun.my theory has always been why run them over with a sports car when you can use a kenworth.
The real drivers are in Peterbuilts. ;)
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Eight autopsies a day? 365 days a year? Hope he gets a day off on leap year.
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Eight autopsies a day? 365 days a year? Hope he gets a day off on leap year.
thats alot of bodies and alot of bullet wounds,where is he located in iraq?peterbilts will work ;D
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Eight autopsies a day? 365 days a year? Hope he gets a day off on leap year.
Metro Atlanta covers a pretty big area...Total murders on the FBI 2005 report for the Atlanta Metropolitan Statistical Area was 331, that's almost one autopsy a day right there.
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Some were just regular autopsies.
The guy's point is use a 45 due to what he has seen.
I am sticken to my 9.
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The guy's point is use a 45 due to what he has seen.
I am sticken to my 9.
Figures I just bought a XD 9MM sub compact (I knew I should have gotten the 40). Bought a Ruger P345 a year ago buts it a little big to CC. Looking for a snubbie, eyeing up a 340PD. Anybody out there have one? Any comments?
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Figures I just bought a XD 9MM sub compact (I knew I should have gotten the 40). Bought a Ruger P345 a year ago buts it a little big to CC. Looking for a snubbie, eyeing up a 340PD. Anybody out there have one? Any comments?
Don't sweat using the 9mm, it's hits that count. No wait; it's *GOOD* hits that count.
Caliber is waaaay down on the list of importance. Mindset and skill will beat caliber every time. (Barring blind ass luck.)
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2 to the chest and one to the head......
that should stop anyone.....
with ANY gun
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The person with the question / poll about mouse guns should read this. Thats why I'm posting to it so it will show up in his "unread posts" ;D
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hard to argue with a .45 center mass,125 .357's have been quite effective for many years as a stopper,have never been a fan of the 9mm and don't own one.there was a shooting buy the NYC police in which they shot 41 times hitting the man 19 times with 9mm hardball and he was still standing holding a wallet in his hands the cops thought was a gun,he looked like he was 150 lbs. soaking wet.over all I agree with what was said and always believed in that assesment and thats why I carry a .45 and have .45's and .357's in my house as well as a 12 gauge.
Rock, In this case the NYPD were using Ball ammo not Hollow Points. Shortly after this shooting the NYPD changed over to "Controlled Expansion " Rounds (Hollow Points for the Non PC crowd) I was part of the defense team that recreated the shooting to show what the Officers were seeing and hearing during the event (It was video taped to show in the court room, Don't know if it was ever used) One of the things I pointed out was that they needed to get some ammo from the same lot to see what kind of muzzle flash they would get from the shooting. There was a door with a reflective surface and the officers said they saw the flash of the gun being fired at them,it was in fact their own muzzle flashes they saw.
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I wonder how many people have seen a figure moving in the dark and blown a mirror off the wall ? Truly not as funny as it may sound if you live in an apartment or have neighbors close by.
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Guess I'm having a serious senior moment, but I can't seem to bring up the thread. Can someone give me the childproof version for finding it ???
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Guess I'm having a serious senior moment, but I can't seem to bring up the thread. Can someone give me the childproof version for finding it ???
Which thread?
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The one about the mortition and the bullet damage to the bodies. When I go there it just shows a bunch of threads from S&W forum members. Is there a specific title to the thread or what ???