A phrase that lots of gun owners use that just pisses me off..

[MikeBjerum]

This is a hot topic!  I've been out of it for a few days and it is seven pages already!

In Minnesota the State has their list of places you can not carry - PERIOD.  They also give businesses and organizations the right to post as not guns allowed.  However, you are not held to the no carry based on posting unless they suspect you are carrying (and can prove it) and they ask you to not carry.  At that time you become guilty of a misdemener (damn I wish I could spell) if you do not comply.  From the State approved book for the conceal carry course it says concealed means concealed.

[black jack]

There's something  more basic than the law or even rights here. The fact that you can do something or have the right to do it does not mean you have to do it. If you know it will offend a lot of people and do anyway, especially to piss off those people, then you are not upholding your rights, you're just being rude. Manners, people, manners. A civilized society has to have rules of conduct. In a civilized society, the common citizen shouldn't have to go healed.

There's been a lot of talk about how you couldn't pass or enforce any rules that would target black people or women. That shows that this forum is peopled mostly by white males. Ah, testerone!

Several have mentioned that they CCW for protection. I'd like to ask, protection from what? Do you live in such a high crime area that the LEO's can't maintain the peace? Or is it as the song says, "Paranoia strikes deep/Into your heart it will creep..." Are you honestly telling me that if you had your wife and kids in the car with you and somebody did something threatening that you'd get into a gun fight with them? What if a stray bullet struck little Suzie in the head? Or is the varmints that you're worried about? Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

I don't think this is about 2nd Amendment rights, which I fully support. It's just macho bullshit. I am a man and I can do whatever I want whenever I want and you can't say me nay! And woe betide if you try!

[Pathfinder]

There's something  more basic than the law or even rights here. The fact that you can do something or have the right to do it does not mean you have to do it. If you know it will offend a lot of people and do anyway, especially to piss off those people, then you are not upholding your rights, you're just being rude. Manners, people, manners. A civilized society has to have rules of conduct. In a civilized society, the common citizen shouldn't have to go healed.

There's been a lot of talk about how you couldn't pass or enforce any rules that would target black people or women. That shows that this forum is peopled mostly by white males. Ah, testerone!

Several have mentioned that they CCW for protection. I'd like to ask, protection from what? Do you live in such a high crime area that the LEO's can't maintain the peace? Or is it as the song says, "Paranoia strikes deep/Into your heart it will creep..." Are you honestly telling me that if you had your wife and kids in the car with you and somebody did something threatening that you'd get into a gun fight with them? What if a stray bullet struck little Suzie in the head? Or is the varmints that you're worried about? Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

I don't think this is about 2nd Amendment rights, which I fully support. It's just macho bullshit. I am a man and I can do whatever I want whenever I want and you can't say me nay! And woe betide if you try!

For all intents and purposes, I am done posting on this topic. I think the law and the constitutions (plural) say it well enough. The concept of predominance does apply, even though weasel lawyers (redundant?) try to undo that concept. In short, State law trumps business rules, and State Constitution trumps state law.

As for the first part of this post, -  It is better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it.

From your post - "I don't think this is about 2nd Amendment rights, which I fully support. " - apparently not if your comments are a true indication.

This issue is not macho bullshit, it is about human rights and how people try to eliminate those rights through laws, policies and the like.

[black jack]

From your post - "I don't think this is about 2nd Amendment rights, which I fully support. " - apparently not if your comments are a true indication.

As a gun owner, I do fully support the 2nd Amendment. I just think my interpretation of it is different than yours. That's why we have a Supreme Court, because the wording of the Constitution is open to discussion and interpretation. It's the very cornerstone of our society, and one of the best things about this forum and especially this thread. We can discuss. If you leave the discussion, you're violating your own right as an American citizen...free speech.

[Pathfinder]

As a gun owner, I do fully support the 2nd Amendment. I just think my interpretation of it is different than yours. That's why we have a Supreme Court, because the wording of the Constitution is open to discussion and interpretation. It's the very cornerstone of our society, and one of the best things about this forum and especially this thread. We can discuss. If you leave the discussion, you're violating your own right as an American citizen...free speech.

OK, uno mas.

Black Jack, go back to page 1 of this post, I think, and there I quote verbatim from the North Dakota State Constitution. That is why I used the plural. There is nothing even remotely open to discussion in that language. And, as I noted, it was written into the very first paragraph of the 1st section of the 1st article. The only thing that preceded it was the affirmation of God's role in our lives.

I have expressed my opinion, and my choice, my freedom of speech if you will, is to avoid flogging a dead horse with someone who seems to think that the "law" prevails over all, regardless of the type of "law", nature of that "law", or origin of that "law". Remember, Hitler's actions were all legal, all based in German laws, only some of which he engineered. It is the freedom of the self, of the individual that matters, not what some flawed human has codified into a policy or "law". When that "law" violates the freedoms and liberties, the law is wrong. Period.

If anyone wants it otherwise, well, that way lies tyranny. And I will not argue with tyrants, or their appeasers.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

There's something  more basic than the law or even rights here. The fact that you can do something or have the right to do it does not mean you have to do it. If you know it will offend a lot of people and do anyway, especially to piss off those people, then you are not upholding your rights, you're just being rude. Manners, people, manners. A civilized society has to have rules of conduct. In a civilized society, the common citizen shouldn't have to go healed.

There's been a lot of talk about how you couldn't pass or enforce any rules that would target black people or women. That shows that this forum is peopled mostly by white males. Ah, testerone!

Several have mentioned that they CCW for protection. I'd like to ask, protection from what? Do you live in such a high crime area that the LEO's can't maintain the peace? Or is it as the song says, "Paranoia strikes deep/Into your heart it will creep..." Are you honestly telling me that if you had your wife and kids in the car with you and somebody did something threatening that you'd get into a gun fight with them? What if a stray bullet struck little Suzie in the head? Or is the varmints that you're worried about? Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

I don't think this is about 2nd Amendment rights, which I fully support. It's just macho bullshit. I am a man and I can do whatever I want whenever I want and you can't say me nay! And woe betide if you try!

A RIGHT NOT EXERCISED IS A RIGHT SOON LOST. The reason it is so important to fight for our CIVIL LIBERTIES now, is because wishy - washy gun owners like you and TAB have been so willing to compromise with the enemy in the past.
Federal law (No I'm not sure which one it is in fact it might be in the Constitution) says that it is ILLEGAL to obey an illegal law.
Thoreau said that when honest men are put in jail then jail is the only place for the honest man in that society. In other words, If you OBEY policies and laws that violate the Constitution you are a bad person.
By the way Black Jack, You support the Second Amendment with EXACTLY the same sincerity as Hillery Clinton, OH,  It's for the children. BS, it's for control, and the fact you bring up "little Suzie" being struck in the head by a bullet shows that you have no facts in hand only liberal crap.
If you took the trouble to know what you are talking about, you would be aware of the fact that ,Stairs, pools, Doctors, and lightning kill more children than guns.

[black jack]

muchisimas gracias, mi amigo. usted prueba mi punto.

[Rastus]

...
Several have mentioned that they CCW for protection. I'd like to ask, protection from what? Do you live in such a high crime area that the LEO's can't maintain the peace? Or is it as the song says, "Paranoia strikes deep/Into your heart it will creep..." Are you honestly telling me that if you had your wife and kids in the car with you and somebody did something threatening that you'd get into a gun fight with them? What if a stray bullet struck little Suzie in the head?...

Yes.  I've had knives and guns pulled on me while I was minding my own business on the beach, in the French Quarter, on the interstate broken down and in the parking lot at work...trouble came looking for someone and it was me.  I've even had a knife pulled on me by a co-worker offshore where I was in an corporate no-weapon safety zone...thank goodness for 36" pipe wrenches.  My wife's sister was raped, murdered and found in a sugar cane field a couple of months later ...I guess in a white bread world no one is ever accosted. 

I did not grow up in areas so safe and secure that there is no crime...but in kindness I can understand how people may believe that because here in Tulsa, OK, the crime is a good 30-40 years behind New Orleans and south Louisiana.  It is more than error to frame the world on one's immediate surroundings and experiences.  It is beyond gross ignorance to believe there is no evil in the world as framed by the quoted post.  I chased off cut-throats off my elderly parent's place after Katrina..without a gunfight though I had a gun. 

So, going with your thinking since my dad was dying with cancer in a bed and my mom's crippling arthritis made them non-threats to thugs that I should have let them continue because nothing bad was going to happen..that's just a really crippling, debilitating arrogant attitude, and besides...the damned phones wouldn't work and did not work for another 4 weeks (like the electricity) so why wasn't an officer sitting in their driveway to protect them...the post promises that LEO can handle it...such arrogance to blindly believe in "civilized rules of conduct".

I did not say to do something stupid and I don't think the other guys and gals here would; like you imply the people here would do by fighting, when it was s-t-u-p-i-d.   But, yes in a heartbeat under the right conditions I would get into a gun fight when that is the only option.  It's best to avoid, it's wonderful to retreat, but it's not really the choice of the victim when a thug shows up and won't let you leave intending bodily harm upon your person..just because you want to leave do you really have the loss of thought to believe a victim can leave at will? 

It is narcissistic foolishness to think one can avoid conflict simply because someone who has lived in a cocoon thinks conflict can be avoided by one person's will and that the person will be safe because of laws and the PD.  When life or death is determined in seconds the police are only minutes away...or do they exist as fairies on the shoulders of the enlightened?

I call bullshit on the statement, "In a civilized society, the common citizen shouldn't have to go healed."  To quote "Lions and tigers an bears, oh my!" fully qualifies the childish beliefs in the post.

[black jack]

Thank you, Rastus. Well said. It's what I appreciate about this forum, as I said. And, I apologize for the "macho bullshit" line. It was uncalled for. I know, I know, The Duke said, "Never apologize, son. It's a sign of weakness."

[tombogan03884]

muchisimas gracias, mi amigo. usted prueba mi punto.

To quote from a differant thread, "This is America, speak English."  Don't let him get you riled Rastus, his whole post screams liberal .