National Reciprocity?

[Glockman Parker]

I've been excited about the possibility of National reciprocity but I have been receiving emails from Dudley Brown and the National Gun Rights Org. that say this is going to be a further way to get more gun control. His emails start like this...

"Last week I told you some well-meaning, but in my opinion very misguided pro-gunners are working to pass a bill that could turn into a Trojan Horse for more gun control."

What's the deal? Is this something we should support or not?    I'd love to hear from others on this!! I know Michael has been in favor of it.

Thanks!

Larry

[Timothy]

Probably worried that if the Feds get the lead on this they'll screw it up!

They need to have a reciprocity that's managed by the states IMO!  Problem is, you can't get the states to agree on anything.

The 2nd Amendment is reciprocity as far as I'm concerned!

[MikeBjerum]

As I have thought about this over the years I am torn between wanting National Reciprocity, and strictly a true Second Amendment Right to Keep and Bear Arms.  My fear goes along Tom's line that if the Feds get involved with anything that requires or recognizes certification it will become restrictive and lower us to the lowest common denominator (far too many restrictions on when, where, how, etc.).  It is this type of legislation that tends to make me go Nugent, and then try and act civil again.

By the way (TAB), going Nugent isn't all bad.  I have a waiting list of professionals (doctors, attorneys, dentists, CPA's, investment counselors, etc.) wanting to take my carry, Refuse To Be A Victim, Firearm Safety, and new shooter classes.  I have been told by some of my biggest supporters that it is my passion (Nugent), stature and self confidence that have them bringing in their staff and friends to our courses. 

What I have learned is that we need to be loud and proud, and we need to refuse to back down!  Now do it right!

[tombogan03884]

I don't know Va's laws, but up here in NH I can have anything I can afford, and a CCW is a matter of a 1 page form and $10.
Unrestricted open carry, (the only infringements are those imposed by the Feds) Makes our laws even better than Texas.
I do not want my State legislature having to appease Chitcago and DC to get recognition.

[tt11758]

I've been excited about the possibility of National reciprocity but I have been receiving emails from Dudley Brown and the National Gun Rights Org. that say this is going to be a further way to get more gun control. His emails start like this...

"Last week I told you some well-meaning, but in my opinion very misguided pro-gunners are working to pass a bill that could turn into a Trojan Horse for more gun control."

What's the deal? Is this something we should support or not?    I'd love to hear from others on this!! I know Michael has been in favor of it.

Thanks!

Larry

While I share all of the sentiments voiced above, I will go out on a limb and say that I take with a grain of salt any projection of gloom and doom that immediately precedes a request for funds. 

That's just me, YMMV.
 

[Sponsor]

[Glockman Parker]

I don't know Va's laws, but up here in NH I can have anything I can afford, and a CCW is a matter of a 1 page form and $10.
Unrestricted open carry, (the only infringements are those imposed by the Feds) Makes our laws even better than Texas.
I do not want my State legislature having to appease Chitcago and DC to get recognition.

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY, we have great guns laws in VA also.

[GlockAroundTheClock]

I've been excited about the possibility of National reciprocity but I have been receiving emails from Dudley Brown and the National Gun Rights Org. that say this is going to be a further way to get more gun control. His emails start like this...

"Last week I told you some well-meaning, but in my opinion very misguided pro-gunners are working to pass a bill that could turn into a Trojan Horse for more gun control."

What's the deal? Is this something we should support or not?    I'd love to hear from others on this!! I know Michael has been in favor of it.

Thanks!



Larry

I'm glad you brought this up. I was getting the same notices and it had me confused as to whom you should support. If you go to the NRA's website they explain everything and break it down and dispell some of the rumors and fears that The Nation Gun Rights Org was talking about.  I thought it was funny that both groups were calling one another, "well meaning but misguided." I'm hoping it's a good thing but everytime I think of the government's track record it leaves me nervous. But check out the NRA's website and see what you think.


thanks, cause I was kind of wrestling with it too,

GATC

[Hazcat]

Here is the latest email from Dudley (got it today)....

Last week I told you some well-meaning, but in my opinion very misguided pro-gunners are working to pass a bill that could turn into a Trojan Horse for more gun control.

I was talking about H.R. 822, the so-called “National Reciprocity Act,” which could open the flood gates of gun control.

I’m calling it the National CCW Registration Act.

While the idea that all states should recognize a concealed weapons permit is sound public policy, the use of the anti-gun federal bureaucracy to implement it is simply foolish.

Can I count on you to take action RIGHT NOW? Rep. Lamar Smith is the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee that will hear H.R. 822, the National CCW Registration Act.

I need you to call House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith and make clear that you want to keep the government’s hands off your permit and that you are opposed to federal intrusion into the concealed weapons permit process.

Once the federal government is in the business of setting the standards for concealed carry permits, it’s only a matter of time before they start using that power to restrict our rights.

Now you may hear arguments that this bill doesn’t do that, and maybe that’s true... for now.

Even worse, once this bill starts moving, anyone can amend the bill with anything... and no legislation can bind a future Congress in any way.

That doesn’t count what Obamacrats in the Department of Justice might dream up as the “regulations” to carry out the legislative “intent.”

Gun owners have enough trouble with Republican-run Executive branches implementing the law improperly. Does anyone really think the Obama Administration is going to treat gun owners fairly?

I know many of you are frustrated that you can carry in some states but not others -- I’m frustrated, too.

I carry concealed every day, everywhere I go, and have worked to expand the ability of citizens to carry in dozens of states.

I believe I should be able to carry concealed -- without a permit -- in all 50 states. That’s what “bear arms” means. Believe me, that’s a long-term policy goal for the National Association for Gun Rights.

But mark my words, H.R. 822, the National CCW Registration Act, will become nothing more than a Trojan Horse for even more federal gun control.

I understand that many who support this bill sincerely just want their right to carry respected -- but cannot due to the fact that their state or another won’t do the right thing.

But the devil is truly in the details... and the details are where H.R. 822 gets sticky.

This bill isn’t just about the right to carry for self defense -- it’s a battle over the role of government and the ability to restrict our Second Amendment rights.

Once gun owners let the Obamacrats start mandating whether states recognize permit reciprocity, they will want to mandate what it takes to get and keep those permits.

We’re talking about:
More onerous standards to acquire a permit, so that only FBI agents can pass muster (look at New York’s permit system);
Higher fees;
More training requirements;
A demonstration of “Need” for a permit;
More frequent renewal periods;
Federally-mandated waiting periods;
A national database of all permit holders, accessible by Attorney General Eric Holder;
An extensive, federally-created list of Criminal Safezones, where only criminals will carry and where law-abiding gun owners are vulnerable;
The list of potential problems is endless.
I need you to call House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith at (202)225-4236 and make clear that you want to keep the government’s hands off your permit and that you oppose federal intrusion into the concealed weapons permit process.

I haven’t even mentioned that this legislation would shred the Constitutional Carry provisions that are on the books in Arizona, Alaska, Vermont and Wyoming.

It doesn’t stop with just concealed carry. They’ll co-opt the bill to expand the national Brady Registration Check system to block military veterans with PTSD or individuals with misdemeanor convictions from even OWNING firearms -- much less use them for self defense.

I don’t believe the intentions of the bill sponsors are intrinsically bad -- they’re just naive and misguided.

Many statists in Washington will co-opt H.R. 822 as part of their grab for more federal power and less individual liberty.

Even now, the statists in Congress are trying to adopt a National ID card, complete with biometric data that they’ve forced the states to conform to their mandated drivers license “standards.” The National Association for Gun Rights has been part of a group of liberty-minded organizations which have passed state legislation forbidding cooperation with a National ID card.

While many in the institutional gun control lobby will tell you this is a step forward for CCW permit holders, make no mistake, the National CCW Registration Act is a misguided attempt to protect our rights. It’s like asking the fox to guard the hen house.

They will use this bill as the foundation to create a federal database of CCW permit holders. And then they can link it everywhere the Feds have database connections -- state police, doctors and insurance companies under Obamacare, and Medicaid/Medicare.

I’m sorry, but I refuse to entrust my liberty and privacy to a “trust us, they won’t do that” approach to dealing with Obama, the gun-grabbers or frankly most politicians of either party in Washington.

[twyacht]

Beginning to understand the ramifications of "allowing" the Fed. Gov't to get involved.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/10/brad-kozak/h-r-822-be-careful-what-you-wish-for/

H.R. 822: Be Careful What You Wish For
Posted on October 11, 2011 by Brad Kozak

I’m not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I’ve not stayed recently at a Holiday Inn Express. Yet I fancy myself intelligent enough to believe that I can tell a good idea from a bad one, and determine if I’m/we’re about to get played. Of course confidence men, swindlers and politicians have a name for such people. Call them “marks,” “victims,” or “constituents,” the result is all the same. And they rarely kiss you first. Which is why the latest missive from Dudley Do Right Brown of the National Association for Gun Rights gave me pause, and frankly set my Spidey sense a-tinglin’.

You wouldn’t believe the amount of crap I get in my inbox. I subscribe to a LOT of email newsletters, from gun rights groups, lobbyists, and the like. I read ‘em so you don’t have to. Frankly, a lot of what I read falls into the category of “Chicken Little-isms,” where people cry the equivalent of “the sky is falling” in order to beg for cash. I find those emails simultaneously unhelpful to the cause of the preservation of our Second Amendment rights, and downright disingenuous and boring. Particularly galling is to get one that cites a story that’s two or three years old as if it just happened. I’ve learned – the hard way – to fact-check EVERYthing I get from these email sources.

I take issue with a lot of the emails I get from the National Association for Gun Rights. I like their goals. Not so much about their methods. But every now and then, there’s a kernel of wheat in amongst the chaff.

The call to arms/plea for funds du jour from the NAFGR (sometimes I wonder if their acronym wouldn’t be more accurate if it spelled out “NAGYOU” or something like it), mentions some well-meaning, but in my opinion very misguided pro-gunners are working to pass a bill that could turn into a Trojan Horse for more gun control.

Frankly, I skim most of the NAFGR emails, and assign them to the electronic version of a circular file, if you know what I mean. But this one, for some reason, grabbed my attention long enough to read the whole thing. (Well, right up until the point where Dudley started begging for Benjamins.)

The “National Reciprocity Act” is supposed to force any state that authorizes conceal carry to reciprocate with permits issued by other states, much like every state in the union recognizes your state-issued driver’s license, regardless of the issuing state. Great idea. But the road to Hell is paved with not just good intentions, but great ideas. It’s that Law of Unintended Consequences that is a stone cold beeyatch.

Dudley’s point is that the bill has a couple of serious flaws:

    * It uses the Federal bureaucracy to implement the policy
    * It opens the door to the Feds setting standards for CCW permits, a potential first step in giving them a route in to regulate and restrict gun rights
    * Because of the legislative process, it is anything BUT immune to amendments that could represent a field day for those who want to restrict our rights to possess guns.
    * Because laws are administered by bureaucrats, the way the law is “interpreted” by the Obama Administration flunkies might well make the cure worse than the disease.

Hmm. Those are some interesting points. Let’s see. What Federal agency would likely be given the authority to implement such a law, once it goes on the books…um…have to be an agency charged with regulating guns…one that deals with gun registrations…oh, wait. I know. The Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

RUH-rho, Rhorge!

Yessir, Mr. John Q. Gunowner, I’ve got good news and I’ve got bad news. The good news? Your concealed handgun permit will be recognized by virtually every state in the Union. The bad news? The ATF is in charge of the program.

Yikes!

Now there’s no reason that the law couldn’t be amended, rewritten, or otherwise fixed (as in corrected) by insuring that, say the FBI is in charge of overseeing the law. I know, that’s only a minor step in the right direction. It’s like commuting a death sentence to having your arms chopped off. Have a nice day, now, y’hear? But how much do you know about how laws are made?

Remember, Jefferson himself advised that the two things you never wanted to see made are laws and sausages. Of the two, the harder one to stomach is watching laws get made. All it takes is one evil/mischievous/determined Congressional aide that slips something into the final version of the bill, and Voilá! We have verbiage that completely controverts the spirit and intent of the law.

Think that never happens? Talk to someone that’s worked on the Hill sometime. Make your hair curl, and if you have no hair, it will make it grow, curl, and then fall out again. Our pal Dudley calls this the “National CCW Registration Act.” I’m not sure he’s that far off the mark.

Here’s the deal. I’m not one to assume I’m gonna see gun grabbers under the bed every night, just waiting for their opportunity to grab my guns. But trusting in that bunch of over-paid, under-worked jackanapes we call Congress to NOT screw this up seems to me like giving them waaaay more credit than they deserve. But I’m not sure just what the solution is.

I’m sure that Chris Cox and his crack team of lobsters working the NRA-IRA wing are on top of this, but I’ve seen them back some really stupid legislation before, too. I’m really not eager to trust anybody and their motives, or take them at face value, when it comes to the potential to frittering away my hard-fought Second Amendment rights.

Dudley’s advice?

    I need you to call House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith at (202)225-4236 and make clear that you want to keep the government’s hands off your permit and that you oppose federal intrusion into the concealed weapons permit process.

So what is the right answer? I think Joe Bob Briggs, the Drive-In Movie Theater Critic of Grapevine, Texas may have put it best, when he said “Without eternal vigilance, it can happen here.” If we’re going to take our freedoms for granted, we’ll soon be wondering where they went. Stay informed. Stay alert. (The world needs more lerts.) And keep in contact with your Representative and Senators. The rights you save may be your own.

****

10th Amendment consequences also.....I'm starting to see a big red flag....IMHO.

[kmitch200]

Keep the feds out of it. I'm good to go in 34(?) states right now.
If I HAVE to travel to/through any of the other ones they can KMA if they think I'm going to do it unarmed.