Poor Gun Law Administration

[mward58]

This is actually what the law says: https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/getpub.php?pubtype=STAT_CHAP_SEC&year=current&section=624.7131&image.x=0&image.y=0&image=Get+Section

After reading the law as written I still believe the Oakdale police could have denied your PTP application because they could not confirm your places of residence at the seven day mark - but they didn’t.

    Subd. 2. Investigation. The chief of police or sheriff shall check criminal histories, records and warrant information relating to the applicant through the Minnesota crime information system and the national criminal record repository and shall make a reasonable effort to check other available state and local record-keeping systems. The chief of police or sheriff shall obtain commitment information from the commissioner of human services as provided in section 245.041.

    Subd. 3. Forms. Chiefs of police and sheriffs shall make transferee permit application forms available throughout the community. There shall be no charge for forms, reports, investigations, notifications, waivers or any other act performed or materials provided by a government employee or agency in connection with application for or issuance of a transferee permit.

    Subd. 4. Grounds for disqualification. A determination by the chief of police or sheriff that the applicant is prohibited by section 624.713 from possessing a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon shall be the only basis for refusal to grant a transferee permit.

   Subd. 5. Granting of permits. The chief of police or sheriff shall issue a transferee permit or deny the application within seven days of application for the permit. The chief of police or sheriff shall provide an applicant with written notification of a denial and the specific reason for the denial. The permits and their renewal shall be granted free of charge.

Under the investigation clause they could not, according to your conversation with someone in the department, verify your statement of where you lived for the past 10 years.  If they can't confirm your places of residence then they can't determine if your other provided information is true.  If they can't determine if your background information is correct then they can’t determine if your meet the legal ability to own a handgun or black rifle.  If they can determine your ability to own a handgun or black rifle then they can deny your PTP application.  This becomes the ”Grounds for disqualification.”

Unfortunately, you will see if you go to the link with the law that there is no provision in the law for an automatic issue of a PTP if the seven day time limit is exceeded by the police department.  "The chief of police or sheriff shall provide an applicant with written notification of a denial and the specific reason for the denial."

If one is denied a PTP there is recourse as defined below:

    Subd. 8. Hearing upon denial. Any person aggrieved by denial of a transferee permit may appeal the denial to the district court having jurisdiction over the county or municipality in which the denial occurred.

As I said before, the onerous issue is that we Minnesotan’s have to go through the PTP process to buy a hand gun or black rifle in the first place.

Good Luck!

Watchman,

Read subd 2, 4 & 5 real careful. Then read 624.713 https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/getpub.php?pubtype=STAT_CHAP_SEC&year=2007&section=624.713

If you still think they can deny a permit to purchase to a 9 year resident of Oakdale for not getting enough info, then this discussion is over because I am convinced you voted for Mondale over Reagan in '84!

Good Luck!

[mward58]

It is not OK as a practice and it's not OK if it's routine.  I'm just saying if they are staffed for 50 apps a week and get, say 500 apps, then I can understand it not happening on time.  Sometimes the judge will even let you off for cause! 

Rastus,

I agree with you and the last time when I got a permit to purchase they were late by a day as well. But the difference was last time they did not say 7 to 10 days, they said 7. Then this time when I talked to the person who handles the permits she said 7-10 work days. Then I did research and several local agencies blatantly misquoted the time up to as much as 2-3 weeks along with links to the Brady Campaign. If you thoughtfully look at all of the law pertaining to PTP's you can only conclude that a local agency is to check as much as they can in 7 days and can only deny if you do not meet the criteria of 624.713(Too young, too crazy, too criminal, or papers saying you're too stoned)

[mward58]

I had lost sight of the fact there was an "issue" with his info. I'm irked that the Law says one thing and the county websights disregard that and just impose their own time limits, which is UNACCEPTABLE 

I forgot to put in the first post that I got a permit to purchase two years ago from the same two clerks and my Wisconsin residence info must have been ok back then. I also told the clerks that I have had one in the recent past and I put that on the form where they asked. It is also clear on the application that I have been paying their wages for over 9 years in Oakdale. Again, Poor law...Poor administration. Also, I have talked to several people at my gun club and they were lifelong area residents and they waited past 7 as well. It is fairly evident that they just want people to wait as long as possible. Big bad gun owners...Big bad gun companies.

[WatchManUSA]

Watchman,

Read subd 2, 4 & 5 real careful. Then read 624.713 https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/getpub.php?pubtype=STAT_CHAP_SEC&year=2007&section=624.713

If you still think they can deny a permit to purchase to a 9 year resident of Oakdale for not getting enough info, then this discussion is over because I am convinced you voted for Mondale over Reagan in '84!

Good Luck!

Oh, so you have stooped to name calling!

BTW – No I don’t think “they can deny a permit to purchase to a 9 year resident of Oakdale for not getting enough info.”  But that is not what you said.  You said their reason was because, “…they are still waiting for a response from my place of residence nine years ago.”   I have no clue what information you provided nor if it was complete enough.  I only know, that according to you, they were waiting for a response from - I imagine - someone.

All I’m trying to point out to you is that when NRA-ILA gets the MN AG involved this is what they will see.  The facts, as you have told us about, don’t support that you were wronged in fact they went out of their way to approve you PTP.  This is what the MN AG will conclude if she see’s these facts. 

It really is quite simple, verifying 10 years of residence is part of verifying who you are.  A discrepancy in residency is an indication of identity fraud.

This is not a reflection on you personally and I only say this to illustrate my point.  Criminals do steal identities and make things up.  So when checking out your record and they find a discrepancy or some sort issue with your residency history – that IS a problem.  It raises a red flag and you could be a criminal or a crazy for all they know.  So they have to check it out.

You may see it as silly and stupid being a 9-year resident of Oakdale but the history they ask for is for 10 years.  I would assume that the issue they had was with residence in the 10th year.  The issue was may have been and probably was a small simple problem to overcome.  But, apparently it was enough of a problem for the Oakdale police not to approve you in seven days.

Maybe they took liberties with time because there was a minor issue.  The thing is we don’t know that.  You have right to feel what you feel about your experience.  I don’t question your right to have these feelings.

If you are really this fired up about the PTP requirement use this frustration as motivation to work with NRA-ILA to challenge the MN PTP statute.  I think it is a superfluous requirement given that most gun stores in MN still do their own check on you before the sale is final.  Plus the fact that you can buy from a private individual without a PTP.

If you take challenge the PTP I’m there with you.

Good Luck!

[tombogan03884]

Permit to purchase is an outrage by itself. In NH if you want a CCW permit  the way the law is written (clarified by several court cases) the Cheif of Police SHALL ISSUE a concealed carry license with in 7 days of recieving a completed application OR written explanation for refusal. I will note here that when I  went to pick up my last permit, ( on a FRIDAY in JAN. 07) the Lady at the desk, who does the paperwork, said she "had been out with the flu" and NICELY asked if I "could come back monday as SHE was behind on the paperwork". She was pleasant, apoligetic and reasonable, there was no way I could find fault with this situation. (especialy as I had a cold myself at the time )
10 AM monday it was waiting for me.

[Sponsor]

[mward58]

Permit to purchase is an outrage by itself. In NH if you want a CCW permit  the way the law is written (clarified by several court cases) the Cheif of Police SHALL ISSUE a concealed carry license with in 7 days of recieving a completed application OR written explanation for refusal. I will note here that when I  went to pick up my last permit, ( on a FRIDAY in JAN. 07) the Lady at the desk, who does the paperwork, said she "had been out with the flu" and NICELY asked if I "could come back monday as SHE was behind on the paperwork". She was pleasant, apoligetic and reasonable, there was no way I could find fault with this situation. (especialy as I had a cold myself at the time )
10 AM monday it was waiting for me.

Yep, my point exactly. The first time I got a permit two years ago they were late by a day and I was ok with that because they properly quoted the law and they were kind courteous, etc. This time up front it was obvious they changed an internal policy at the office which obviously violates the law and the response I got from the administrator of the permits was brash and indignant and left me to believe there may be no end in sight to my wait. I just think that Minnesota gun owners need to point out when there is widespread misadministration of gun laws even though some may construe it as "minor". Dismissing liberal anti-gun crazies is very dangerous because in this state you are always just a liberal governor and a few votes in the legislature of losing your AR 15.

[mward58]

Oh, so you have stooped to name calling!

BTW – No I don’t think “they can deny a permit to purchase to a 9 year resident of Oakdale for not getting enough info.”  But that is not what you said.  You said their reason was because, “…they are still waiting for a response from my place of residence nine years ago.”   I have no clue what information you provided nor if it was complete enough.  I only know, that according to you, they were waiting for a response from - I imagine - someone.

All I’m trying to point out to you is that when NRA-ILA gets the MN AG involved this is what they will see.  The facts, as you have told us about, don’t support that you were wronged in fact they went out of their way to approve you PTP.  This is what the MN AG will conclude if she see’s these facts. 

It really is quite simple, verifying 10 years of residence is part of verifying who you are.  A discrepancy in residency is an indication of identity fraud.

This is not a reflection on you personally and I only say this to illustrate my point.  Criminals do steal identities and make things up.  So when checking out your record and they find a discrepancy or some sort issue with your residency history – that IS a problem.  It raises a red flag and you could be a criminal or a crazy for all they know.  So they have to check it out.

You may see it as silly and stupid being a 9-year resident of Oakdale but the history they ask for is for 10 years.  I would assume that the issue they had was with residence in the 10th year.  The issue was may have been and probably was a small simple problem to overcome.  But, apparently it was enough of a problem for the Oakdale police not to approve you in seven days.

Maybe they took liberties with time because there was a minor issue.  The thing is we don’t know that.  You have right to feel what you feel about your experience.  I don’t question your right to have these feelings.

If you are really this fired up about the PTP requirement use this frustration as motivation to work with NRA-ILA to challenge the MN PTP statute.  I think it is a superfluous requirement given that most gun stores in MN still do their own check on you before the sale is final.  Plus the fact that you can buy from a private individual without a PTP.

If you take challenge the PTP I’m there with you.

Good Luck!

Watchman
No malice here. LOL. You still never answered the question if you voted for Mondale over Reagan in '84 like the majority of Minnesotans.

[tombogan03884]

Watchman
No malice here. LOL. You still never answered the question if you voted for Mondale over Reagan in '84 like the majority of Minnesotans.

Maybe he lived in a SENSIBLE state then, like ,Ca. or ANYWHERE else but Ma. that was the other state he took, and the ONLY one that went to Do Kuka's

[WatchManUSA]

Watchman
No malice here. LOL. You still never answered the question if you voted for Mondale over Reagan in '84 like the majority of Minnesotans.

I think I voted for you...

[mward58]

I think I voted for you...

That's OK if you did vote for Fritz. Just don't vote for Barrack No"bam"a. He'll take the guns you worked hard for...or, worse yet, make it so you can't use them.