Poll

What are your thoughts on the Mozambique drill

not silly and a good SD option
5 (19.2%)
silly and impractical
5 (19.2%)
good for targret practice and rapid acquisition of a new target in practice
16 (61.5%)

Total Members Voted: 23


Author Topic: Mozambique drill, silly or not?  (Read 21390 times)

USSA-1

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 01:51:32 PM »
I completely agree with point #1 with respect to the pre-programed target/threat transitions.  I see the El Pres. as more a skills/proficiency test rather than having any real world application.  Where I think the discussion needs to be separated is the distinction between shifting targeting areas on the same threat and moving between multiple target/threats.  I agree with your position regarding multiple targets, but I have to disagree with you on the bio-mechanics of the swing.

With respect to the lack of a perceived stimulus response, consider this.  What threat response initiates a cease-fire during an engagement?  When broken down there is only one acceptable response with two actions.  The threat ceases the aggressive action either voluntarily (he drops the weapon and obeys our commands) or he involuntarily ceases his actions (we've done enough damage to incapacitate his ability to harm us through death or serious bodily injury.)  In either case, how do we know?  We visually process the actions of our threat ("shooting & assessing at the same time") in other words, a visual stimulus.  This is the same stimulus we use during the Soft Transition.  While engaging the threat we visually see he is still in our sight picture and we initiate the transition process.

You describe any potential transition as "reckless."  Can you expand upon that thought some more?  What makes any transition reckless or controlled?  I'm trying to understand if there is some type of value that is assigned to each, i.e. is one type of transition controlled and another reckless.

Quote
THe bad guy is very likely to flinch and move instinctively when you draw and shoot to defend yourself... movement of the head is DRAMATICALLY move profound in terms of relative movement from pint of aim than movement of any part of the torso.

Agreed.  There is no doubt this is a close quarters technique with a performance window of 5-7 yards max. and I tend to think of this more while using a rifle, but a pistol can still be effective but it does require a greater skill level. The head can be very difficult to hit, but just as with any initial response we start with the body first.  Easier to target, track, and hit.  Once we are effectively engaging our threat the soft transition begins.  And by that I don't mean that we are evaluating our hits, only that the engagement process had successfully started.  We have our grip and sight picture and are working the trigger.

Controlling the deviation is actually pretty easy, but only because we are primarily working in the vertical plane.  Since just about every type of gun has some vertical component to recoil, allowing the recoil of the gun to assist with the transition is a relatively easy skill to learn.  Even driving the gun downward for a pelvic girdle engagement is not that difficult.  Now trying to move a gun on the horozontal plane while firing can be a bit more challanging.  It's very easy to over/under swing and it requires more intensity on the sights to pick your spot and stop the gun before you begin the engagement process.

Once again, I agree with you.  Too many instructors put too much emphasis on competition based skills without the proper context.  Competition style drills should enhance your personal skill levels.  They should not be used as a tactical foundation unless appropriate.

Quote
The brain is incredibly powerful when it comes to performing complex motor skills and when we tell it what is going to happen it is able to do things at a much more amazing level than when it is truly caught off guard... no amount or rehearsal is going to change the things that have the biggest affect in the real fight.


Agreed, but is this not the entire foundation for why we train?  To create as realistic an environment as possible to innoculate one to not only the flinch response, but the entire physiological and phsychological aspects of a violent confrontation for the purposes of programming a path to success?  To sharpen tactics and techniques enough to be stimulus response initiated and applied to any environmental threat?  There will always be a performance gap between real world and training, but the higher skill I reach in training, the better I'll perform in the real world.

Quote
Have you considered the differences (physiological and behavioral) between the body/brain/eyes during range drills and counter ambush shooting?

The real secret is learning that there is a difference and understanding how your body will fight when under stress.  The more you train in a stressful environment, the better you'll be able to perform in that environment.  Your not going to train away millions of years of human evolution, but rather develop techniques that work with your bodies natural tendencies and not against them.  A flinch response draw technique to a surprise threat is a perfect example, but what happens if you have prior knowledge and there is no surprise?  Do you still perform in the same manner?

Quote
If yes, how do you justify swinging between targets in preparation for defense against multiple threats?

This is a good question but I think you have to include awareness into the example.  Do I know there are multiple threats?  If I do, am I aware of their general locations?  For example, was I confronted by two suspects at an ATM machine or one while another one is on watch.  If it's the first case, then I know I potentially have two immediate threats.  I deal with the most highest priority threat first then transition to the other.  At this point, I concede a pause.  There has to be some determination that this second threat is indeed still a threat.  If I am not aware then it becomes as you've previously mentioned, a series of single threat ambushes as I scan for other threats.

But does all this mean target transitional training is ineffective?  I would offer that it is still a necessary skill to have.  Consider a threat behind a vehicle.  You have the threat localized behind the vehicle, but you don't know the exact point he will appear in his attempt to engage you.  Having good transitional skills will allow you to orient your weapon in the general direction of the threat and in the brief moment the threat uncovers to engage you, allows you to transition from a neutral point in space to the threat, hopefully getting ahead of your threat in the engagement process.  Training in target to target acquisition will help develop this skill.


On another note, guys this discussion is exactly the reason both I, and I presume Rob, suggest that you avail yourself of the opportunity to train with as many different instructors as possible.  Our ultimate goal is to make you a better shooter, not to make you a copy of us.  Beg, borrow, and steal whatever you can for your individual skills toolbox.  Use what makes you a better shooter and discard the rest.  Most reputable instructors have something valuable to contribute, but if you don't diversify your training you won't be maximizing your training experience.

Erik
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tombogan03884

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 01:59:06 PM »
In reference to lighter caliber hand guns it's called a failure drill, in other words shooting center mass ain't working, either because of body armor or some other variable. seems to me the only logical option is to shoot them somewhere else.

PegLeg45

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2009, 12:32:59 AM »
I've always felt that standardized drills were at least good enough for teaching basic gun-handling competency. The kicker is to not get complacent in one's training to the point that the drill becomes the extent of the training. As several have pointed out on this and several other threads in the past, it's hard to train for the unknown or unexpected threat.

One stop-gap method my shooting companions have used in the past was what we called "Red Light-Green Light", for lack of a better term. It takes at a minimum of two people and can be as simple or complex as you want to make it.
An example would be to have multiple targets arranged in various ways at varying distances from the shooter. The range partner has a lighting device (we used flashlights and red and green laser pointers) and controls the shoot-no shoot. The shooter engages which ever target is illuminated for the amount of time that the light is on the target. The 'light man' controls (unknown to the shooter) which target and for how long the target is engaged (or if it is engaged at all).
It could really get interesting for a shooter when several people had the lights at the same time.
This was more random than a standard drill, but it too leaves a lot to be desired. I hope I explained it enough to make sense.

There is no one simple solution to cover all the bases in training.
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2HOW

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2009, 09:28:07 AM »
IMO any drill that you use will add to your competency of shooting. No drill is "silly" as long as it incorporates the principals needed to add to your skills.
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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2009, 10:19:33 AM »
It's a fun drill for the range but, the Mozambique Drill is a Military drill meant for combat not SD. Could you have to use it in SD shooting maybe anything is possible (I don't have a Crystal ball ::)), but I don't think it's very likely. 
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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #15 on: Today at 03:08:31 PM »

twyacht

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 05:08:59 PM »
IMO any drill that you use will add to your competency of shooting. No drill is "silly" as long as it incorporates the principals needed to add to your skills.

+1 to that.

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Rob Pincus

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2009, 10:46:17 PM »
2how, that is exactly the point... if it doesn't actually add to the skills that you need (or in the context that you need them) for a defensive situations, then a drill can be silly.

2HOW

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2009, 10:21:18 AM »
2how, that is exactly the point... if it doesn't actually add to the skills that you need (or in the context that you need them) for a defensive situations, then a drill can be silly.
As an instructor I can see your point about being "mission specific" you teach blocks of instruction for a certain scenario. As just a novice shooter any drill enhances my chances of staying alive regardless of context. I agree with you, I just look at it from a different perspective.
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twyacht

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2009, 07:26:13 PM »
Just wanting analysis

Is this a good drill or bad?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuQKr2AkKDU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzuRXy_Kij8&feature=fvw

And yes of course, a bit of this,... I know it's Hollywood, but a realistic drill non the less?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeNPJ0fgWVY&feature=related

Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

Michael Bane

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Re: Mozambique drill, silly or not?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 09:00:33 PM »
And yet...and yet...the Mozambique drill and the El Prez were never more than kata for the martial art of handgun shooting...if I remember correctly, Bruce Lee once said that kata was of no consequence, but that insight was only available to those who learned the kata. It took me 10 years in a dojo to understand the function of the basic kata of the style I trained in, and by then it didn't matter at all.

If we look beyond the kata at the technique, I teach a "soft transition" failure drill any time the shooter is using "sub-caliber" ammunition, that is, anything less than 9mm ball or equivalent. The ranges of such shots will be within the "hot zone," 5 yard or closer; the movement of the head will be less of an issue. Having been involved in an arms-length armed confrontation, I will say that the head was REAL BIG.

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