A word (no, several) about night sights, lasers and other sighting aids....

[Tyler Durden]

I shot in the 2007 IDPA Nat's.  The last stage was sponsored by Blackwater.  It was inside an indoor range.  They had taped these strobe lights to the floor.  Then they shut off the lights.

With the strobe lights flashing, it was really distracting.

I shot it without a flashlight.  I really do think that having a flashlight on that stage would have just slowed me down.

I think at across the room distances with just bad guys...you do NOT need a flashlight or a laser...or sights for that matter.

I'm sorry...I am just NOT buying into the hype of $100 flashlights.  I'm not a "gear queer".

Anywhoo...one of these days I will have to upload my hatcam footage of that match to YouTube.

[god45644]

I don't know how relevant to the thread this may be, but about tritium night sights = LE friend of mine that was providing support for SWAT one night was doing a search.  The suspect was hiding in an abandoned building (warehouse I believe).  They shut the doors behind them to prevent backlighting theirselves (him and his partner) as targets (they were blocking the entrance to prevent the target from coming back through).  One thing that he had noticed was that as they were standing there, their tritium night sights was producing enough light that each could see the other without any additional light source.  He didn't know if this was enough to light them up as targets but he is certainly more aware of the future possiblity.

[WatchManUSA]

But Rob wasn't it you who said, "the exception to your training should be easier than you train"?  I do get your point though, I'm just relating an experience that kind of goes against the conventional wisdom about night sights and lasers.

I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training.

[Rob Pincus]

I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training.

Yeah, that was kinda what I was getting at. There is a training lesson to be learned here... "don't worry so much about extremely contrived circumstances that comes from games" might be a way to put it. 

[scott.ballard]

I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training.

Absolutely!!!  Well said.

Scenario Question from the Prosecutor of the Civil Case Against You:  So, Mr. Smith, how did you know that the person you were shooting at, my poor crippled for life client, was actually armed?  After all it was low light and by your own testimony difficult to see things.

Answer:  Well, you (explicative deleted) I drew my personal flashlight from my pocket and used it as I was trained; to identify the weapon in your client's hand.

Obviously it won't happen exactly like that, but having a light with you could mean the difference between being the defendant or the person who goes home after the investigation.

If you leave home with a concealed carry firearm, you should also have a cell phone, extra ammunition, at least one knife on your centerline and a flashlight.

My CCW kit includes my sidearm, my BUG, 2 mags since I'm one of those 1911 guys, 2 of the exact same knife with window breakers, my charged cell phone with GPS and 2 Surefire Executive flashlights.  (Ankle Vaults are a wonderful thing)  I also carry a small first aid kit with a pressure bandage and clotting agent.  

It's not paranoid, it's prepared.

Stay safe,

[Sponsor]

[fullautovalmet76]

Yeah, that was kinda what I was getting at. There is a training lesson to be learned here... "don't worry so much about extremely contrived circumstances that comes from games" might be a way to put it. 

Rob,
You are a "tactical snob".....   

I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training, in my limited opinion.

Corrected it for you..... 

I'm not going to debate IDPA here, that's been done in a thread from about 18 months ago. The club I shoot at makes an honest attempt to create plausible scenarios, though they are limited. But I do realize it is a game with more formal rules than USPSA, in my limited opinion.

[brosometal]

I have never shot any matches, but if I were to equate what I've read here it would be the LSAT.  Its a test for law school but it isn't about law, but about the way you think.  The described scenario seems to be along the same lines.  It may not be a practical, but it tests how you will think tactically on the fly.

[Tyler Durden]

WatchmanUSA wrote:

I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training.

Oh NO You didn't!!

 

Just kidding...

It is at this point that most threads on other forums would spiral down into nothing more than internet pissing contests.

This is just my anecdotal experience over about 12 years worth  of matches with respect to the training thing....99.9% of the cops who come to shoot any type of match IDPA, USPSA, or steel, never show up again.  I suspect it is quite the blow to their egos when they see their names at the bottom of the results page, and then they think, "But...but...but...I'm trained!?!?" 

I reckon IDPA and USPSA is a lot like a boxer going into the gym and working on the heavy bag or the speed bag.  It is a simulator of sorts.

I guess if I had the room, something like a heated/air conditioned pole barn, and the friends with the airsoft guns and paintball masks then I/we would try our hands at force on force training.  The only catch though is, I think, the invasive of the masks...not being able to read people's faces or expressions as well...and the other downside is that, I think, to get the full effect of it, all the bud's who had not shot the stage yet, would have to be kept in another room.  It is best if they don't know who or when is going to "attack" them.

[ellis4538]

First off, let me say, I believe the stage shot without some light is very unrealistic!  I also agree it is a game.  I have shot one at the USPSA Nationals with a FL and felt it was OK for a game but not something I really liked (almost beat Rob Leatham or he almost beat himself to be more specific).  Also I would not go anywhere that was that dark looking for a BG especially not at 63 Y'sO even though my night vision is pretty good!  I know, I know someone will say "But what if...?"  No buts, I'd leave that to the pros.

JMHOFWIW

Richard

[scott.ballard]

First off, let me say, I believe the stage shot without some light is very unrealistic!  I also agree it is a game.  I have shot one at the USPSA Nationals with a FL and felt it was OK for a game but not something I really liked (almost beat Rob Leatham or he almost beat himself to be more specific).  Also I would not go anywhere that was that dark looking for a BG especially not at 63 Y'sO even though my night vision is pretty good!  I know, I know someone will say "But what if...?"  No buts, I'd leave that to the pros.

JMHOFWIW

Richard

Hey Richard,

Why do you think the overall experience of competitive shooting was less than realistic?  Was it a lack of finality for a miss?  Lack of life or death stress?  Missing the immediate, personally felt through pain, feedback?

Did you find it stressful or fun?  In between?  Did you experience any of the effects of stress while competing?

Did you always have the thought in your mind that it was only a game?

Any input you may have will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Stay Safe,