Active Shooter in a Church

[PEOM]

I am a member of a volunteer church security team and have recently been asked to lead the team. I have been looking for information on training and proper response to an active shooter in a church. Now, low and behold, an episode of Best Defense will address that very issue. I know that this episode will impart some important points, but as with most things, this is just a start. Does anyone have information on training addressing active shooters? While there is starting to be training out there related to church security, the active shooter portion is less specific, more academic, and not geared to hands on training. 

I appreciate any information this group may offer.

PEOM

[alfsauve]

Hi PEOM,

I don't have an answer but did want to comment.

I work in a church.  Not security.  And I worry about terrorist attacks most Sundays, especially on Christmas and Easter.  In my state, GA, only LEOs and licensed Security Guards hired by the church can carry on the property.  Fortunately, our legislator made it a minor misdemeanor offense.   Not that I would EVER break the law. 

I'm not privy to our church's plans, but I think since we hire 5 off duty uniformed LEOs for traffic control the church leadership is hoping they will be sufficient.   Of course, if I were a terrorist and had properly cased the joint, I'd wait until all 5 were in our break room enjoying breakfast and take them out first. 

So I'm interested in what your church formulates.  Even might like to pass it on to my management.

Haven't watch BD yet but have it on DVR and will watch this week sometime.

 

[PegLeg45]

Hi PEOM,

I don't have an answer but did want to comment.

I work in a church.  Not security.  And I worry about terrorist attacks most Sundays, especially on Christmas and Easter.  In my state, GA, only LEOs and licensed Security Guards hired by the church can carry on the property.  Fortunately, our legislator made it a minor misdemeanor offense.   Not that I would EVER break the law. 

I'm not privy to our church's plans, but I think since we hire 5 off duty uniformed LEOs for traffic control the church leadership is hoping they will be sufficient.   Of course, if I were a terrorist and had properly cased the joint, I'd wait until all 5 were in our break room enjoying breakfast and take them out first. 

So I'm interested in what your church formulates.  Even might like to pass it on to my management.

Haven't watch BD yet but have it on DVR and will watch this week sometime.

 

Last years new gun legislation (HB60) allowed churches to "opt in" to allow licensed carry on church properties with "church" permission.

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2014/04/11/gun_bill_report.pdf

[alfsauve]

And opt-in will only happen in a very few. 

[PegLeg45]

And opt-in will only happen in a very few.

Sadly, that is true.

Our last pastor was very pro 2nd Amendment and was intent on working on this at our church, but he resigned back in October and we are still seeking a replacement.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Here are old threads I found on the subject, there are probably more.

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=10903.0

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=1034.msg8843#msg8843

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=12404.msg161175#msg161175

[vincewarde]

And opt-in will only happen in a very few.

Likely more than one would think.  At least two companies that insure churches are quietly encouraging the formation of armed security teams.  One company is actually owned by a denomination that has a long history of pacifism.  I am in the process of moving from California to Idaho and the church we will attend there is a large one (about 1500 in two services) and I would bet that the "safety team" is armed.  There are no signs banning guns and no state law prohibiting carry in churches.

Frankly, I think there have been enough shootings at houses of worship - all of which were "gun free zones" - that the insurance companies are seriously concerned about the liability of requiring church members and guests to be left defenseless.  I also think that insurance companies are behind the actions of many businesses who have "requested" that people not carry, vs. posting the legally required signs.  Sooner or later, some business or organization will loose a lawsuit over gun bans.  When that happens, a lot of signs will come down.

BTW, I know this stuff because I am a retired minister.

[TAB]

Likely more than one would think.  At least two companies that insure churches are quietly encouraging the formation of armed security teams.  One company is actually owned by a denomination that has a long history of pacifism.  I am in the process of moving from California to Idaho and the church we will attend there is a large one (about 1500 in two services) and I would bet that the "safety team" is armed.  There are no signs banning guns and no state law prohibiting carry in churches.

Frankly, I think there have been enough shootings at houses of worship - all of which were "gun free zones" - that the insurance companies are seriously concerned about the liability of requiring church members and guests to be left defenseless.  I also think that insurance companies are behind the actions of many businesses who have "requested" that people not carry, vs. posting the legally required signs.  Sooner or later, some business or organization will loose a lawsuit over gun bans.  When that happens, a lot of signs will come down.

BTW, I know this stuff because I am a retired minister.

  no insurance company is worried about that.  If they are they are not a good insurance company, at least not when it comes to $$$.  Its not just insurance company's.  Several times a year you hear about a nd in a rest room.  That results in $$$$$ in repairs.  Having handed people invoices for $7000 for negligent discharge repairs( on duty cop btw some no chance to sue for the damages)

[vincewarde]

  no insurance company is worried about that.  If they are they are not a good insurance company, at least not when it comes to $$$.  Its not just insurance company's.  Several times a year you hear about a nd in a rest room.  That results in $$$$$ in repairs.  Having handed people invoices for $7000 for negligent discharge repairs( on duty cop btw some no chance to sue for the damages)

Wow, I was not aware that there was an epidemic of negligent discharges among CCW holders.  Also, read what I wrote - I said that increasingly insurance companies are becoming concerned about the liability of leaving people defenseless.  At least one has gone public recommending armed security teams - something that would previously have been unthinkable.  Let me make this clear, they are not suggesting that everyone with a permit be allowed to carry.  Never the less, it does prove that they are concerned about churches leaving people defenseless.  http://www.mennonitemutual.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Guns-In-Churches-Addressing-Church-Security-Needs-201307.pdf

If you think that the damages from an occasional ND is going to come close to the tens of millions (or more) that could result from a mass shooting with dozens of people killed or wounded, you aren't very good at math.  One thing is sure: Corporations are indeed trying to have it both ways by "requesting" that people not carry in their businesses.  Is this being done to please anti-gun groups?  Of course, but if they are going to tick off gun owners, why not go all the way and post the required signage?

I think the answer to that question is that these businesses are not taking this step because their lawyers and/or insurance companies are concerned about taking the affirmative step of requiring people to disarm before entering their business.  Remember, many people get permits because there is a very real threat.  25 years of experience with CCW proves that there is no security benefit to banning licensed persons and off duty cops from carrying in a business.  That leaves only the downside risk.  It really isn't complicated: Banning guns increases the chance of a random mass shooting.  I believe at least some lawyers have actually figured this out.

[TAB]

The max pay out of any church wil be the max insurance, so a couple mill at most.  Just because on insurance company says, means nothing.  Btw. Court case have said even police don't have to protect you.

For there to be damages caused by you being disarmed, you would have to prove that in court.  Which in reality will not happen.  Lawyers and insurance companys know this,.
This was a political move.

Having a gun does not equal self defense.  Its just a tool.  Its how you use it. If you truly believe that sd comes from a gun, well lets just say good luck.