AR 15 Home Defense

[1776 Rebel]

Many thanks Rob and Michael for the information.  Given your findings on penetration, I will certainly be loading Hornady 55 gr TAP .223 in my M4 30 round magazines for home protection. 

CDR can I humbly suggest that you do some testing yourself? Not disparaging RP/MB or anyone else, but to make a decision with legal and lethal consequences based on a couple of posts on an Internet forum seems premature to me. I can just see ya in court telling the jury that "hey I read some post on MB's forum, I didn't expect it to kill my kid/neighbor". No one on this forum is going to testify in your defense.

Why don't you spend 20 or 30 bucks at Home Depot. Buy some sheetrock and 2x4s and drag it out to the range. Shouldn't take more than an hour or two to walk away with some eyeball evidence of your own. Do some wet telephone books also. Get to KNOW your round personally.

This is what makes me nervous about this whole Internet thingy...

[CDR]

I can just see ya in court telling the jury that "hey I read some post on MB's forum, I didn't expect it to kill my kid/neighbor". No one on this forum is going to testify in your defense.

Thanks a lot........................

The Great Don Worsham would come to my defense....right Don?







Actually, the thought of bringing a couple of pieces of sheet rock to the range to test out the Hornady TAP rounds did cross my mind earlier today after reading Rob's post.  I was thinking of getting some 55 gr and 75 gr. to see how it performs out of my M4.  Your point is valid and well taken.  Thanks.

[PoorSoulInJersey]

No matter the testing, don't forget a HUGE amount of variability. Once the bullet enters the wall, it could hit a stud, a pipe, a couple nails, or anything else that deflects, spins, stops, or splinters the bullet.

Once a bullet penetrates the drywall or plaster, you really don't know what else it could hit.

[1776 Rebel]

What I would be interested in is a simple and inexpensive protocol for testing of this theory of disintegrating 223 rounds. Can I suggest the following and get some feedback?

Build a closed box (6 sides please, say 2ft square on a side) with one or two layers of sheetrock. Shoot dead center into the box. The round should penetrate the front of the box. Now it is trapped inside the box. Does it breakup? Does it have many fragments? One main frag with some sand? Does anything penetrate ANY side of the box and exit? How does this exit hole look? Is  it barely exiting or doing it quite well? If necessary beef up the 6 sides of the box until it is TOTALLY CONTAINED. Now put some 2x4 in the flight path. Record what happens to the bullet then. As previously suggested maybe a few nails in the 2x4 would be worth it as another step. Record how each factor affects the bullet frags and path. (this should be done very carefully as your asking for richocets when hitting metal). If you have a brick face on your house maybe place a brick inside the box etc...

[PegLeg45]

No matter the testing, don't forget a HUGE amount of variability. Once the bullet enters the wall, it could hit a stud, a pipe, a couple nails, or anything else that deflects, spins, stops, or splinters the bullet.

Once a bullet penetrates the drywall or plaster, you really don't know what else it could hit.

+1

Good timing with this post.
Bullets do CRAZY things.
Don't believe it? Check out my latest reply on the Hunting Season 2008 thread from today. Not a .223, but a .243 did a magic bullet trick and killed two deer with one shot.

[Sponsor]

[Rob Pincus]

When you're testing for this purpose, always use 2 pieces of drywall spaced 4 inches apart to simulate actual wall sections. Usually, I will then space them as if they were in a cross section of a home (hallway widths and typical room widths between them). If you're worried about not penetrating, you don't have to worry about the studs or other things in the walls, as you are testing for the worst case scenario.

As for the "box test" desrcibed above, I can promise you that 1 or 2 sheets of drywall in that test will not significantly affect the bullet inside of 2 feet. The space between the sheets is important in terms of the bullet both breaking up and losing speed as it tumbles and hits the next piece of wall in a position other than point first. The reason the 55gr .223 makes a better choice than pistol bullets in this regard is because it is less likely to pose a threat through interior home walls, especially after 2 or 3, not because they magically "disintegrate" when they hit drywall.

If you are looking for absolutely no risk of penetration through an interior home wall, you are going to have to look at something like rat shot out of a pistol or (maybe) .410 birdshot.... not the greatest known defensive choices! Any firearm/round choice is a compromise of variables that you need to decide how to balance against one another.

The show Wesnesday night will demonstrate the recommended set up and several common rounds.

As for this:

No one on this forum is going to testify in your defense.

I wouldn't be so sure. One of the reasons I pay a significant amount of money to Lloyd's each year for Errors & Ommisions insurance is because of the possibility of ending up in court if a student has a problem after acting on something I taught. That teaching extends to articles, videos and even internet posts like these. Most instructors understand that and are pretty specific about what they write online.
That may not be the case for posts from the annonymity of "toughguy345", but when you see a professional instructor posting under his name, it carries as much weight as it would in a classroom setting or a printed article.

-RJP

[TAB]

walls are not 4" apart, they range anywhere from 3.5"-5.75"  depending on the actually 2x stock used.

2x4s are not 2" x4"    The are 1.5-1.75 x  3.5x3.75"  depending on any number of things.


Diffrent thickness and types( yes there are several diffrent types) of drywall also make a big diffrence in how strong they are. 

[Rob Pincus]

That's a good point, TAB.... everyone's situation is going to be a little different. If you really want a 1:1 test, you've got to use the exact materials and spacing that are in your home (including the spacing between the walls for your predictable angles). The room that I am sitting in right now, for example has thin panelling on one side of the wall and drywall with wallpaper on the other.
At the end of the day, even the most exhaustive tests are going to reveal variables and anomalies (such as the magic .243 bullet alluded to above). People often want easy answers that don't exist. We can generalize about the results and make educated decisions however.

When we do the tests for mass audiences to learn from, we have to generalize to the width of the 2x4s we have on hand, 3/4" drywall that is used commonly and "typical" widths for rooms and halls.  One of the good things about having done the tests many times with different typical materials is that you can develop general conclusions.


-RJP

[1776 Rebel]

I wouldn't be so sure. One of the reasons I pay a significant amount of money to Lloyd's each year for Errors & Ommisions insurance is because of the possibility of ending up in court if a student has a problem after acting on something I taught. That teaching extends to articles, videos and even internet posts like these. Most instructors understand that and are pretty specific about what they write online.
That may not be the case for posts from the annonymity of "toughguy345", but when you see a professional instructor posting under his name, it carries as much weight as it would in a classroom setting or a printed article.

-RJP

I would think that your insurance isn't going to pay CDRs attorney fees. Its for your defense againist suit. Your covered if we sue you. If your saying that your insurance extends to us as readers acting on your advice I would love to hear that.

[PegLeg45]

walls are not 4" apart, they range anywhere from 3.5"-5.75"  depending on the actually 2x stock used.

2x4s are not 2" x4"    The are 1.5-1.75 x  3.5x3.75"  depending on any number of things.

Diffrent thickness and types( yes there are several diffrent types) of drywall also make a big diffrence in how strong they are. 

Also of note, some (rare, but some here do) builders put closed cellulose fiber insulation in interior walls as a sound deadening agent.
Don't know how this would affect a bullet.