Author Topic: AR 15 Home Defense  (Read 30151 times)

Fatman

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2009, 09:30:26 AM »
Wow. Finally, my experience as the Quality Dept Manager at USG can be of some good.  I can give you some insights on sheetrock and the different boards and wall systems.  First, modern 2x4 are 1 1/2 x 3 1/2, and that is pretty consistent with computers figuring out how to optimize lumber usage, and ultra thin blades doing the cutting.  Modern studs are not as dense as studs were years ago. Reason? Faster growth rate of modern forests through management techniques, trees reach harvesting height faster than ever.

The sheetrock itself is not solid rock.  Voids are intentionally designed in to reduce the weight of the boards, and other materials are added in production. The size of the voids are pretty small and uniform in USG board, tending to be less uniform in most other brands. (Bigger, less uniform voids = weaker board, easier to penetrate). The paper-wrapped edged of the board are denser than the center - less air is mixed in to harden those edges to help prevent handling damage, but while they are harder, the edges are also more brittle to face strikes. The relatively  large density differences between the edge and field mix does result in a weak area where they meet, approx 1 1/2 from the edge . The edged are also tapered to allow easy filling with joint compound.

If you have a fire rated board, that board has chopped fiberglass added to it, and the fibers run (mostly) in the length direction, the same as the fibers in the face and back papers. Strength of any wallboard product is significantly higher across the width of the board as opposed to the length, but fiber glass increases the core strength even more. 

Why bring all this up? How your board is hung can effect how a bullet might react to striking it. If your board is hung "up and down", a bullet hitting at an angle along the length of the board will meet with more resistance than if your board is hung length-wise with butt joints (where the flat ends meet), and the thinner, brittle edges of the board are directly in front of wood or metal studs. Board run length-wise has a seam about 4' from the ceiling (and another 4' from there if your ceiling is over 8' high) that is both weaker and thinner than the rest of the board. Board hung in this direction should also offer less resistance to bullet strikes along the length. Complicate the seam issue with the tape used. Paper tape = less strength than fiberglass tape.

We could also get into the reaction of the  sheetrock core to a bullet strike. CaSO4 releases water in reaction to heat. It's the reason why it's fire resistant. In a fire, the major strength of the board is burned off quickly - the paper.  Fiberglass does not directly add to fire resistance, but acts to hold the core together longer by spanning the cracks occurring as water is released in reaction to heat.  A Firecode C board has vermiculite in it, in addition to the fiber glass found in Firecode board. Vermiculite pops like popcorn, releasing additional water vapor and expanding to fill in cracks.

Two hour rated walls have a double layer of board on both sides. 1 hour ratings have one. So depending on your local codes, you wall thicknesses may vary.

I know of no study looking at bullets striking sheetrock, but I'm trying to give a reasonable explanation based on what I learned from 15 years in the industry. Maybe someone will test some of this out...  ;)

Quick edit: I can see better potential for 5.56 fired at an angle to be deflected off the back of the board in the next room and into a stud based on horizontal construction for the above reasons. Straight on, all bets are based on resistance / tumbling and shattering. A bullet tumbling and hitting the next piece of sheetrock across the width will meet with more resistance than one striking length wise.

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2009, 11:38:16 AM »
Fatman most excellent !! I would love to have you on a team to develop a solid PROTOCOL in doing a study on various bullet perfomance within a household envirornment. The ususal  "I hung some sheetrock up at the range" doesn't cut it for me. Thoughtful, stepwise, data acquisition are all needed. Report for duty please on Monday ! :)

Rob Pincus

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2009, 12:30:27 AM »
Thanks for that education, Fatman... more than most need to know for sure!  It certainly shows the importance of multiple tests with any material to account for the variations and voids.

-RJP

CDR

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2009, 10:31:55 AM »
Yeah.......after Fatman's report, I just took the piece of sheetrock out of my range bag.    :)
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2HOW

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2009, 09:02:43 PM »
I think what Fat man said is true as far as wood. Most homes and apartments are made with metal studs. and  1/2 inch wall board with insulation between . Outside wall are 5/8 board with insulation. To get back on topic, no frangible rounds are made to penetrate, period.  Thats why they made them. Shallow wound channels and at very best , death by cell shock or bleed out. Absolutley no stopping power. The myth that the SEALS use frangibles has perpetuated this topic. Sorry to say that big bullets and penetration is still king.
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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #35 on: Today at 12:25:17 AM »

1911 Junkie

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2009, 09:46:44 PM »
I personally like frangible ammo (not Glazers) and use it in my carry gun and house AR. Reduced penetration on hard objects and the massive wound channels with 100% energy retention are 2 selling points.  If you look at ballistics jelly they outperform corbons hands down. You do need to do some research since there are a lot of "frangible" bullets on the market nowadays. Tailor the bullet choice for what you want it for, hunting, self defense, target and I don't think you'll be dissapointed.

The best I have found is International Cartridge Corperation (ICC).  Check out their testing and videos online.

www.iccammo.com
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wisconsin

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2009, 11:06:53 PM »
Holy Crap :o All I can say is wow
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Rob Pincus

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2009, 12:14:14 AM »
2How, 1911 Junkie,

Your posts are either wrong or you are using the wrong terminology. Differing opinions are welcome here, but mis-statements must be corrected. Please review the thread for the terminology difference between Pre-Fragmented Rounds like the Glaser and Frangibles that are designed to break up on impact with objects such as STEEL. The latter do not break up on wood or other similar materials and certainly do not "deposit energy" into people in any way other than that of traditional bullets. We fired many thousands of frangible rounds through wood over the years and a good friend of mine had a frangible round go right through his leg without depositing/fragmenting/etc anything.

Specifically to your post, 1911 Junkie, Valhalla was probably one of ICC largest customers. Over the course of 4 or 5 years we probably shot over 250,000 rounds of it. Their rounds are GREAT for what they are designed to do (turn to dust when they hit steel), but that does not include
Quote
Reduced penetration on hard objects and the massive wound channels with 100% energy retention are 2 selling points.
.... if you are counting interior house walls as "hard objects".

If there is a misunderstanding, please restate your posts.

-RJP

1911 Junkie

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2009, 10:05:37 AM »
I hope your friend is O.K. He is lucky the round did not fragment. I don't think the leg would have enough mass to break the round up anyway, but I'm not sure.
I would consider "hard objects" block, stone, brick, steel.(my head). There is less chance of (not no chance) shooting through the BG.
When I said 100% energy retention I meant just that.  When the round breaks up and all of it stays in the target then all of the energy stays in the target (also reduced penetration).  If the round goes completly through the target then in my mind it stands to reason that there is energy being wasted and only a single wound channel to show for it.

It's not a perfect round but I think the good outweighs the bad, IMHO.

I thought I was leaving Glasers out of the frangible category. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I do know the difference.
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Rob Pincus

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Re: AR 15 Home Defense
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2009, 11:30:20 AM »
1911,

Again, your statements are counter to the observed facts of the behavior of Frangible Rounds.

The frangible rounds that are designed to break up on contact with steel to make training easier cannot be counted on to break up in people (100% energy transfer) or reduce penetration risks inside typical western construction homes.

This thread has run its course ...

-RJP

 

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