Ammunition Selection: Heavy and Slow or Light and Fast

[Gossamer]

I use Win white box 230jhp because of two simple reasons. One they are reliable and they are accurate in my two .45acp handguns (Kimber 1911 and XD). I can only hurt them if I hit them. I tried 9 different types and this was the one that worked best for my particular firearms.

[Road Hog]

The definitive answer to your question is likely in the book "Stopping Power" written by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow.  I have always been a "heavy and slow" guy but they build a very convincing case for light and fast.  You need a certain level of speed and energy (not mass) for the HP bullet to perform, basically to reach the bullet's performance threshold.  You want the bullet to shed its energy early in the penetration in order to incapacitate quickly by destroying internals.  It is not about bleed holes.  It is not about lethality either, it is all about incapacity.   You want one shot incapacity and you want it quickly.  If you think bleeding out is the answer, while he is bleeding out, he will shoot you ten times. 

If it was about heavy and slow, the 230 gr 45 ACP would out perform the 69 gr 223 but it doesn't.  Think speed and energy, not mass.    Reportedly, Jim Cirillo, gunfighter extraordinaire, developed a line of SD ammo from his street experience that has a 45 ACP load with a bullet weight of 90 grains, e.g., traveling at over 2000 fps with muzzle energy of more than 825 ft-lbs.  Penetration 9 inches.  The bullet shape looks like 230 gr ball.  Recoil is similar to standard 45 loads, I am told by one who shoots and carries the load.  Compare those performance numbers to your current 45 SD load.  I have been carrying 200 gr Black Talon loads.

I also thought you wanted max bullet weight retention but now not so sure.  You want the bullet to frag and penetrate only in 8 to 12 inches, not the 12 inch minimum FBI penetration standard.  Hell, I am only 12 inches deep at the chest.  FBI shooting and civilian self defense shooting are different because of their need to shoot into car metal, class, etc where SD requirements are much less stringent, usually close, frontal and softer targets.  If the bullet fragments, there is much greater potential for internal damage, like arteries being severed and organ damage. You want all the energy expended in the target.  The Border Patrol standard is reported to be much more realistic and relevant.

This is an awesome, detailed, substantiated read that is solely about about "one shot kill" street cases and performance, with info about lots of handgun calibers, some rifle and shotgun loads.

If you want to know all about this subject, the theory, testing and street results, don't take my word or your friend's word, read this book.  Then make up your own mind, Heavy and Slow or Light and Fast because you will likely know the answer for yourself. 

Road Hog

[fullautovalmet76]

The definitive answer to your question is likely in the book "Stopping Power" written by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow....It is not about bleed holes.  It is not about lethality either, it is all about incapacity.   You want one shot incapacity and you want it quickly.  If you think bleeding out is the answer, while he is bleeding out, he will shoot you ten times. 

As I said in the beginning, I haven't read their book so I can't really comment on what they say. As for one-shot stops: other than hits to the central nervous system, I believe that is a myth. Everyone talks about it, but I can't find any evidence for it.

I think I'm going to take Dr. Fackler's word over your's on the issue of energy transfer and one shot incapacity. In the articles I have read by him he basically states that you want a large enough wound channel, that penetrates deep enough to cause the most damage.

If it was about heavy and slow, the 230 gr 45 ACP would out perform the 69 gr 223 but it doesn't.

You are comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking about pistol cartridges, the majority of which are traveling under 1500 fps. Rifle cartridges travel 2 - 3 times the speed of some of these cartridges, so the comparison is meaningless.

FBI shooting and civilian self defense shooting are different because of their need to shoot into car metal, class, etc where SD requirements are much less stringent, usually close, frontal and softer targets.

I'm not so sure about this either. On the show "The Best Defense" in episode 6 or 7 they show scenarios where one might have to shoot through a windshield to stop an attack. Keep in mind this show is targeted for civilians, not law enforcement or the military.

If you want to know all about this subject, the theory, testing and street results, don't take my word or your friend's word, read this book.  Then make up your own mind, Heavy and Slow or Light and Fast because you will likely know the answer for yourself. 

You're right I should read the book to add to my understanding of the subject.

[tombogan03884]

I think I'm going to take Dr. Fackler's word over your's on the issue of energy transfer and one shot incapacity. In the articles I have read by him he basically states that you want a large enough wound channel, that penetrates deep enough to cause the most damage.

  Bare in mind  that "deep enough" doesn't mean through. As Road Hog pointed out, he's 12 inches at the chest, so 11 inches of penetration would lodge against his spine.that's enough to reach every organ in his body. So I go with slow and heavy.

[Road Hog]

You are comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking about pistol cartridges, the majority of which are traveling under 1500 fps. Rifle cartridges travel 2 - 3 times the speed of some of these cartridges, so the comparison is meaningless.

Of course I know about the comparison (pistol/rifle) but is it really meaningless?  It seems very consistent with the stated premise that light and fast trumps heavy and slow relative to incapacitance.  Because it is a rifle cartridge does not mean it reacts to or creates different laws of physics?    If it is about bullet speed and energy (transfer), then that is what one could base their decision on as to what to carry in a handgun cartridge for soft targets, i.e., the highest speed with the greatest muzzle energy.  One of the most effective street rounds (with lots of history and case studies) is reportedly the 125 gr in 357 Mag and the 125 gr 357 Sig duplicates that Mag performance and not surprisingly, has one of the highest one shot incapacitance percentages.   

One should carry and shoot only what they have confidence in for a SD load.   Please understand, with today's bullet technology, I feel there are probably very few poor cartridge and bullet choices.  And naturally, accuracy trumps everything.

Great topic and discussion though.

Road Hog

[Sponsor]

[CZShooter]

This discussion reminds me of an article written a while back (can't remember by who). And, I agree that the Marshall & Sanow stats are flawed. Mainly because their test data is limited to shootings where only one shot was fired. I don't know about you guys...but I'm going to keep shooting until the threat stops, or I run out of ammo.

In my last CCW class, I had somebody talk about the famous “Marshall & Sanow One Shot Stop Statistics” and about how this student was going to use a 97% round instead of a 92% round. 

Okay, if you aren’t familiar with these, basically these two guys, Marshall & Sanow, supposedly looked at a ton of actual shootings, where people had been shot once in the torso with a bullet, and then they measured what percentage of those resulted in an immediate stop, i.e. immediate cessation of hostile action.

Then they published their work, and all bullets were rated.  Immediately, people who were not given to critical thinking, accepted these percentages as gospel, and you could hear people arguing at gunshows and on the interweb about how they’re more tactically saavy because their handgun load was a 94% stopper, while yours was a meager 82% stopper.

Over time the flaws in this stuff became apparent, and luckily we don’t have to hear about it as often as we used to.  But it still pops up once in awhile. 

Let’s break this down as to why this idea is massively flawed.  First, assuming that their data was not fabricated (because of lot of the shootings weren’t documented by anybody other than them), this wasn’t exactly scientific data.  It wasn’t like they lined up 300 death row prisoners, shot each one in the chest with a different brand of .45 and then watched the clock until they quit kicking.  Supposedly these were incidents from actual gun fights. 

And since gun fights by their nature are fluid, dynamic, and always suck, we can also assume that they’re going to be different.  To illustrate:

Shooting 1:  Subject is 105 pounds, soaking wet.  Pacifist.  Faints at the sight of his own blood.  His book club calls him “Todd.” Has never been in a violent encounter in his entire life.  Plays Barbara Streisand records to get “charged up”.  Gets shot in the abdomen with a Brand X .32.  Bullet lodges in the belly button.  Barely breaks skin.  Subject faints because of loud noise.  .32 Brand  X = 100% stopper.

Shooting 2:  Subject is 310 pounds of prison hardened muscle.  Has a spider web tattooed over his whole face, and his friends call him “Death Train”.  Subject 2 is high on coke, crack, meth, elephant tranquilizers, No-Doze, and Cherry Pepsi.  While robbing a bank during a tri-state killing spree, Subject 2 engages in a running gun fight with police and is shot through the lung with a Brand Y .45.  Subject 2 then carjacks a busload of handicapped nuns to escape.  Later has friend who flunked out of Vet School remove the bullet with a pair of barbeque tongs.  Subject 2 then goes to 50 Cent concert.   Brand Y .45 = 0% stopper.

So from this illustration, you are far better off carrying the Brand X .32 than the Brand Y .45. 

Now obviously, that is flawed, because of the nature of the subjects.  Death Train and Todd are not equivalent in any way.  Death Train would EAT Todd.  However, they’re both people that got shot in the torso with a single round, therefore they are valid M&S stats. 

Then you’ve got people shot in the heart vs. those shot in the gut.  Both bad, but one is usually fatal in a matter of seconds by the basic facts of biology.  However, both are one shot stops.  So if the guy carrying an inferior round, is a better shot, that round gets a better percentage. 

And then my personal favorite, they disregard multiple shots.  Because if you shoot the guy twice, then that doesn’t count.  I don’t know about you guys, but anybody worth shooting is worth shooting five to seven times.  I’m not going to shoot the guy once, and then wait around to see what percentile he falls into.  My gun is going to sound like a friggin’ jackhammer until he decides to leave me the hell alone.

Once again, before you jump onto any Gun World bandwagon, exercise a little critical thinking.

[Ping]

Bigger holes bleed faster.

Amen to that USSA-1.

[tombogan03884]

 Your 9mm MIGHT expand, My .45 will NEVER shrink 

[twyacht]

Heavy and fast.  Relatively speaking.

With training, practice, repeat,...... and shot placement.

When asked to summarize a recent gunfight, Bill Hickock (known for his short answers) was quoted at saying simply, "He missed. I didn't." Bill correctly concluded that his point was made and that additional details would be superfluous. There is no substitute for surgical accuracy, no matter how exciting the situation. "Lots of shooting" doesn't end fights. Hits do!
John Farnam

[kmbrman]

Hey guys, Everytime we hear some new information about how a new load performs, it upsets our ideas we thought were set in stone !  I'm referring to Heavy and Slow as in 147 JHP Fed. HST in 9mm. , and others in this grain size that have come on the scene lately.   The HST 9mm, at what we would call slow velocity, penetrates well and expands to the size of a Nickel . So much for light and fast as in Cor Bons ,and other +P+ 115 JHPs . Another sleeper I've found in expansion and penetration in my own gallon water jug test , is Fiocchi's 147 JHP in their catalogue as 9APDHP @ 1000fps. . It expands and penetrates really well ; the jacket and core stay together and the results look like Rem. Bonded Golden Sabers .