Real rifles

[someguy]

Just want to note that of all the (many) debates/flamefests/complete tantrums I've read lately debating the merits of ARs, this one has been handled in the most adult and professional manner.

Nice job not being jerks, everyone.  I'm serious.  It's refreshing.

[USSA-1]

Warhawke,
 

Sorry about the mess.   

 

There's no mess.  You started a thread with a pretty strong statement about the AR system that started quite a discussion.  You are to be commended!  Discussion, accurate information, and the free exchange of ideas or techniques is the whole idea.  Other forum members may use this or some other thread as a resource for a purchasing decision.  I think we have a duty to provide accurate information and dispell common myths and misconceptions in a respective, conversational tone.

As for your other selections..I like the Sig family of rifles although I do think the quality of the triggers is exaggerated, but that may be because I'm used to 2lb. competition triggers in my AR.  Compared to a standard, off the shelf rifle, the Sig triggers are excellent.

Interesting choice with the FN-FNC and the FAMAS.  I handled some FNC's, but never a FAMAS.  The FNC handled well enough, but it kinda struck me as being similar to the original M16.

I'm with you on the AK.  I think it's a fine weapon.  I have a 74 that I'll break out occasionally during my carbine classes just to show the students that it doesn't matter what weapon you are shooting, fundamentals translate.

I've also been watching the 6.5 vs. 6.8 scene pretty close.  I'd like to get one, but the price of ammunition it too high at this point.  Hopefully, some branch will pick up a caliber and then ammunition manufacturers will start to crank out ammunition.  This should hopefully cause some price drop on the retail sales side.  Until then, I'll just have to wait it out.

Erik 

[Bidah]

I am fine Warhawke, no mess, maybe a little fuss. 

I cannot comment on any of those other systems as I have never shot them (or even handled many of them).  Heck, I have not handled or even shot an AK, so I can't comment there either.

I have been watching the whole 6.5 vs 6.8 thing as well, intently.  I do not believe that the whole ammo issue is as big of a deal now with $400 .223 and .308...    The 6.5 is popular here in MT, and one dealer that I frequent is doing quite the business in it.  A lot of them are being purchased for hunting.  I want to take the plunge and get one.. I just can't decide which one... !!!!!  Since I reload almost all of my ammo, either one would not be as big of a deal for me.

-Bidah

[Teresa Heilevang]

I am going to poke my blond head in the doorway for a second and get my 2 cents in.. Not about the AR's, cause I don't know squat from siccum about them.. other than I like to shoot 'em..
BUT...
 One of the things I DO know about is people..and different personality's on forum's and how things can stay level one minute and go to sh** the next second.
To learn as much as I can, I read every thread in the forum or try to anyway.. and this one ..even though it had all the potential of being a good informative thread.. kinda got started out on the wrong foot. And right off the bat, some burrs got caught under a few saddles. But with a gentle tactful tug.. Erik turned it around from a head butting contest to a wonderful informative and positive thread.
Now you know why Down Range is so darn lucky to have Erik Lund on board. I can't brag on this man enough. His character and common sense approach is something we all are going to benefit from on this site.

Also my personal thanks to everyone who shares their knowledge and viewpoints here on Down Range. 

[tumblebug]

 
 Knowledge pro & con is what it is ALL about .LOL .

[Sponsor]

[Iraq Ninja]

Warhawke,

It is interesting that you mentioned Jessica Lynch.  Personally, I feel that in their case, there was a serious lack of maintenance, and this problem exists to this day with many of the support soldiers in the Sandbox. 

I used to be based in Tallil, right next to Nasiriyah. This is where Jessica Lynch was captured. I used to drive the same route her convoy took. I know where they got lost, where they fought, and where she was captured. Thus, I often reflected on what went wrong. If you read the AAR on the 507th, one thing that stands out is that these soldiers did not have their weapons properly maintained and many of them jammed or failed. Compare their failure rate to the Marine units in the same battle, and you will see that it was an isolated event for this one unit. It was not so much the fault of the weapon, but of the soldiers, their NCOs and officers.

I don’t know why, but many support soldiers have poor weapon maintenance skills. They just don’t get it. I used to watch them clear their weapons on the way into the dining facility and the majority had dry bolts. Even their officers had dry pistols slung in shoulder holsters, which btw often fell out onto the ground. You could tell which soldiers were the ones who went outside the wire, because their weapons were well maintained.

I never had any issues with my M4, which started off as a bushmaster 11.5, and later traded in for a Colt 14.5 Some of our Bushmasters had extraction problems. People make a big deal about the dust and sand in Iraq. First of all, it is not like sand as most of us know it. It is a fine dried dirt.  It can be a problem during sandstorms, but those are not very common. The choice of oil is a factor, as some of them seem to attract dirt more so than others.

I have owned a HK 416 upper and though I liked it, I sold it because I could not get spare parts from HK. About this same time I started to realize that my standard DI M4 was doing its job. I will admit that the DI system does decrease the life of certain parts of the rifle. Personally, I am not looking to fix the M16, but rather move on to a modern rifle such as the SCAR or Masada.

[someguy]

Erik-   I don't have the link handy, but if you go take a look at LWRC's forums regarding the 6.8, you'll see some not-so-subtle hinting from several LWRC factory guys re: agency contracts for 6.8 coming in 2008.  Probably old news to you, but thought it worth mentioning, given your previous comments. 

[m25operator]

I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go, without the govt, deciding. My vote go's for the 6.5 on pure ballistics, and inherent accuracy, remember the 6.5 carcano with the equivalent of a low end Tasco scope took JFK'S  head off at a considerable distance for a moving target. The .270 winchester is not an inherently accurate cartridge, but ballistically is very sound..  The 6.5x55 swedish round is both, the data I've gathered from the aforementioned websites, supports this selection. The 6.5 has it all, ballistic coeffiecient, sectional density coupled with sufficient velocity ='s downrange performance, and with the right bullet weight, extended range, 600 meters + performance. This thread has made me look at the differences enough to make a decision, I'll be looking forward to a 6.5 grendel or the next improvement for my new AR project. The main drawback for the 6.5 anything has been bullet length taking up too much volume in the case. At the stated velocitys of the 6.5 grendel, this does not seem to matter. I do think the US, will continue to alter the 5.56 with heavier bullets before much else changes. Politics aside, if we want better performance, the 6.5 will win out.

[pioneer]

Real rifles?  Oh, you mean like a Remington 700?

[timjffrs]

Looks like this warhawk guy just got right in everyones rear end.  Bravo! Question:  If the 556 is inferior why did other countries produce battle riffles in that caliber subsequent to the ar. (the Galil and AK74)