New Modular Handgun System for the military?

[uhpretired]

The Army was fielding 9mm handguns to SOF in Vietnam, the S&W 39 comes to mind and with a suppressor it was called a "hush puppy". From the articles and information I've been reading/hearing is that the big Army and Navy are fine with the 9mm for some time to come, the Marines and Air Force want a new pistol caliber.

Army I think its because 9mm is cheaper than 45 and for Navy I think its because the SEALS prefer it over the 45, most combat soldiers aren't trained well enough to use the 9mm cartridge and its capacity to its fullest advantage, SEALS however, are or at least pretty close to it so they like the capacity (plus some of them use hollowpoints) over the size of the round.

Thanks for the information Neon Knight.  Being one who was drafted during Vietnam I don't know about your information concerning the SOF in Vietnam as well as the "hush puppy".  Are you getting the information on hush puppy from a book written by Alan Paulson?

I still think that the government may be wasting our money on this project.

[Neon Knight Anubis]

I'm sorry it was the SEALS that I was thinking about! My apologies!

There were pistol trials in 1949 for a 9mm and the S&W 39 was one of them, along with the Colt lightweight commander 9mm and I think a few other. The SEALS like the 9mm and in Vietnam many used the S&W Mk 22 Mod 0 hush puppy for taking out dogs and sentries. Also I remembered that Richard Marcinko in his book Rogue Warrior talked about using one in Vietnam.

There's also a book called The Weapons of Navy SEALS and it goes into the SEAL/9mm history. I knew I wasn't completely crazy.

[Dougdubya]

Marcinko also made no bones about the fact that he loaded his 9mm rounds so hot he actually broke the Beretta.  John Weismann, being a Heckler and Koch shill, took the opportunity to bad mouth the Beretta every chance he got, but Marcinko liked the design, even if he DID hotrod it to death.

[Bill Stryker]

Neon Knight

The out come of the 9 mm trials in the 40s was that the decision was made to stick with the .45 as the more effective round as I recall. Same story that came out of the Philippines so long ago that led to the .45 replacing the ineffective .38.

Several friends of mine did purchase the M39 with their own funds to take to Vietnam. I took a M19 .357 Mag as my every day sidearm -- but when I knew the stuff was going to hit the fan I borrowed a .45 for the operation. We got there early --1963,64,65 -- most of us were there when the Army and Marines finally arrived in force. In those days personal weapons were allowed for officers and NCOs.

There was a lot of 9 mm available for our submachine guns at the time. So, there was free ammo for the M39. I had to buy my own .357 ammo and take it with me.

[Neon Knight Anubis]

Neon Knight

The out come of the 9 mm trials in the 40s was that the decision was made to stick with the .45 as the more effective round as I recall. Same story that came out of the Philippines so long ago that led to the .45 replacing the ineffective .38.

Several friends of mine did purchase the M39 with their own funds to take to Vietnam. I took a M19 .357 Mag as my every day sidearm -- but when I knew the stuff was going to hit the fan I borrowed a .45 for the operation. We got there early --1963,64,65 -- most of us were there when the Army and Marines finally arrived in force. In those days personal weapons were allowed for officers and NCOs.

There was a lot of 9 mm available for our submachine guns at the time. So, there was free ammo for the M39. I had to buy my own .357 ammo and take it with me.

Thanks for the lesson Billstryker, I knew the pistol trials didn't lead to anything but its amazing we have such a short term memory isn't it? I thought they stopped personally owned weapons long before that, very interesting. I'll bet it was kind of a bummer to have to bring your own ammo.

[Sponsor]

[Bill Stryker]

Neon Knight,

Re your, "I'll bet it was kind of a bummer to have to bring your own ammo."

Never gave it a thought. I had a wife and a baby on the way. I wanted to get home to them. So, I bought the best .357 ammo I could find -- hollow points -- and was ready to fight my way off the plane since my M19 was loaded. We did not have speed loaders back then but we did have dump boxes that would dump six rounds in your hand all at once. I felt ready. I wore that M19 all the time except when on patrol along with a little Bayard .32 for backup.

I rarely carried a handgun on patrol, only when I knew I was going into a fight and then it was a .45 for a number of reasons. Ammo resupply being only one of them. I finally settled on an M2 carbine as the best available weapon for what I was doing as a junior infantry officer - 1LT. It was light, handy and you could carry a heck of a lot of ammo in one ammo pouch. When I felt I needed a backup to the M2, I would carry the .45.

[MikeO]

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/military_handguns_070425w/

Congress halts Air Force plan for new handgun

By Rick Maze - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Apr 26, 2007 10:36:43 EDT

"Congressional negotiators have put a hold on the Air Force's plans to
replace the M9 9mm handgun so the Defense Department can consider the
possibility of a joint plan for upgrading or replacing pistols.

The M9 is the standard issue sidearm for the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and
U.S. Special Operations Command, but the Air Force asked for $89.8 million
in the 2007 wartime supplemental appropriations bill to start purchasing a
replacement.

The request was not included in the compromise version of the bill approved
Monday by congressional negotiators. Instead, lawmakers would provide $5
million for a study of the joint sidearm requirements, including any
service-unique requirements, according to a report accompanying the bill."

This stuff changes direction every time the wind blows...

This is through the Army on behalf of the Air Force but everybody has their eye on it.

[jaybet]

At least we get another $5 Million dollar study!

[MikeO]

Whats best for the operators (a full size fighting handgun in .45 ACP) isn't necesarrily best for most of the rest of the military who carry handguns. Law enforcement, security, pilots, armor, and aircrews, etc would do fine w a compact pistol. The US Coast Guard does fine w the compact SIG 229 in .40, NCIS does fine w the comapct SIG 239/229 in .40, and the compact HK P2000 in .40 rides the border just fine w CBP... many in the military would like to go that way too, but the ones who want another big .45 and a manual safety (remember the MK23 MOD O?) are sticking to their guns.