Top tier, second tier, and so on...

[Hazcat]

Bogan,,

So by your reasoning would Kel-Tek be a top tier?  They had the first little .380 and 9mm and some of the first if not first pistol caliber carbines.  Also they came up with the .22 mag pistol that holds more than 10 rounds (wish they'd make a 22.LR the same way).  They also have the eject out the front rifle and now a new shotgun is coming out http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-shotgun-ksg/

Then there is HiPoint who warrants their fire arms for life!

[Ichiban]

It's easy for me to list some of the top tier makers - S&W, Sig, Springfield, Colt, etc.  It is harder for me to decide who is second tier.

If you are talking 1911s these guys are all second tier. 

Your discussion is poorly framed and without any real definitions or parameters.  Such is common with discussions of this type.  Another Ford-Chevy thing.

[Timothy]

Personally, I could care less what a handgun looks like as long it goes bang every time.  I like 1911's so Colt would be my choice but they are no longer the most dependable 1911 on the market.  My Para does fine for me but I had few other choices since I was living in MA when I bought my 1911 and their list is rather short in that regard.

I'm warming up to polymer pistols but haven't handled enough or shot enough to make a determination.  Glock is at the top for most folks but that's not what I'm looking for in a polymer handgun.

Revolvers are kindergarten easy, go bang every time, clean up easily and are fairly easy to tweak.  I'm kinda coming full circle again and looking at a J-frame pocket gun again.  At that level, S&W would be 1st if I can afford one or find one without the silly little locky thing.

Top tier 1911's don't have to cost 3K, they just gotta work and I don't think some of the high end ones are all that reliable.  Are they at the top of the/my list?  Nope...

Oh, yea....Springfield is still the last 1911 I'd consider...

[tombogan03884]

Bogan,,

So by your reasoning would Kel-Tek be a top tier?  They had the first little .380 and 9mm and some of the first if not first pistol caliber carbines.  Also they came up with the .22 mag pistol that holds more than 10 rounds (wish they'd make a 22.LR the same way).  They also have the eject out the front rifle and now a new shotgun is coming out http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-shotgun-ksg/

Then there is HiPoint who warrants their fire arms for life!

I would have to say yes .  Unlike some one like Kimber, they are producing their own innovative designs, with reliable quality and performance.
Please note that my lists at each level used examples rather than listing and classifying every handgun maker in the world.
Another thing, to clarify in relation to Tim's reference to Colt 1911's.
While they may no longer be the "best" 1911's, they were the originators of the design, so all other 1911's, regardless of quality, are simply
copies of some one else's  proven design.

[Hazcat]

I would have to say yes .  Unlike some one like Kimber, they are producing their own innovative designs, with reliable quality and performance.
Please note that my lists at each level used examples rather than listing and classifying every handgun maker in the world.
Another thing, to clarify in relation to Tim's reference to Colt 1911's.
While they may no longer be the "best" 1911's, they were the originators of the design, so all other 1911's, regardless of quality, are simply
copies of some one else's  proven design.

So your tiers are driven more by innovation not fit and finish or even reliability?  Or is reliability also a factor?  (I am NOT saying Kel-Tek or even HiPoint are poor in that department.  I own both and have had zero problems with them).

[Sponsor]

[bafsu92]

WOW! good question.
It would depend on specific criteria, but while I agree with most of your choice for top tier I would replace  Springfield with Glock.
While Glock may lack the esthetic appeal of the other top tier makers, it is an outstanding performer, and  their own design.
I would consider the second tier to consist of Those who make reliable clones of other 's designs, placing Springfield, Kimber and Rock Island Armory all on the same level with Taurus and Charter Arms.
These companies are all lacking either originality, or else while the quality is acceptable the workman ship is not up to first tier standards.
For the 3rd tier I would say companies like Hi Point, Cheap, bulky and clunky, but still retaining high reliability.
At the bottom of the barrel would come the .25 ACP crap, Rohrbaugh,and other pistols with either poor reliability, excessive ammo sensitivity, or extremely short performance life.One thing I notice in my own list is that price has little to do with it, the Glock I classed as Top tier is around $500 while the Rohrbaugh, I put as "bottom of the barrel" is several thousand.

I think you take this even a step further. I believe there are more tiers and what was listed by the OP is really 2nd or 3rd tier. I think 1st tier manufacturers are the ones who still build all or mostly by hand, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Les Baer and similar companies. True gunsmiths, not just a company that can program and run a CNC but someone who can hand build and hand fit a rifle or pistol. Some of the stuff from bigger companies custom shops can fit here as well like Springfield and Kimber's shops.

Next tier is stuff that still gets some hand fitting like Dan Wesson or cataloged custom shop offerings from Kimber or other similar shops. In this tier you can argue rifle builders who hand fit and build like LaRue and Noveske and similar companies. You then have another tier or sub tier for companies like STI, Doublestar and some others who are still building a better and somewhat hand-fitted pistol than say Colt, standard factory Kimber, Sig, S&W etc. I agree that Glock should replace Springfield, unless it comes from their custom shop Springfield really doesn't build their own guns anymore. They buy and re-label XD's and just about all their 1911's but the high end and custom shop stuff are being built by Imbel in Brazil.

You can put Taurus in a lower tier but they build a 1911 that is equal or better than most Springfields, sometimes for half the price. Talking about which Brazilian company builds the better 1911 is about hte same as arguing who produces a firmer turd as far as I'm concerned. I've kind of come to the realization that unless you plan on spending a couple grand minimum for a pistol you're getting a 2nd tier gun at best. It comes down to what feels best in your hand, what you shoot best and what your happy with. Don't let someone rag on your... insert brand here pistol if that's what you like and shoot well. I carry a Glock 19 as much or more than any other pistol I own even though I've got pistols that cost 4-5 times more. I do it because it's easy to carry and I know it works every time. Most companies outside of the High Points and similar are made pretty much the same. Taurus has a great warranty, even High Points, ugly bulky and cheap are supposedly pretty damn reliable. As long as it goes bang when it's supposed to and you are carrying rather than leaving it in a safe or drawer then it's 1st tier for you. No major manufacturer makes a gun with the quality, care and precision they used to when they employed actual gusmiths that fit parts rather than factory line workers who assemble parts. Add in all the government regulations, additional unneeded crap like multiple safeties, loaded chamber indicators etc. and guns that have to be complaint to certain states and you can't really expect anything 1st tier or really even 2nd tier from a normally cataloged major manufacturer.

[tombogan03884]

So your tiers are driven more by innovation not fit and finish or even reliability?  Or is reliability also a factor?  (I am NOT saying Kel-Tek or even HiPoint are poor in that department.  I own both and have had zero problems with them).

My choices were based on innovation and reliability about evenly with fit and finish being kind of a secondary consideration.
That was why opposite of Bafsu, I rated the "custom maker's", like Ed Brown, at the #2 level since ,yes, they have outstanding production methods, but the real intellectual work of conceiving, perfecting, and proving the design was already done for them.
As an example, I would rate the Kel Tec P3AT higher than the Ruger LCP since, regardless of materials or appearence Ruger simply cloned a proven popular design.

[Solus]

Not only are their several tiers, it might be viewed as different aisles on the same tier.

For instance.   Savage may make a rifle as rugged, dependable and close to as accurate as a Weatherby.

Based upon practical criteria, they both could be top tier, but Savage is not in the same class as Weatherby in terms of finish.

So, we might have something like   Top Tier Standard (Savage), Top Tier Exclusive (Weatherby) and Top Tier Custom ( Les Bear)

I never think of Savage as a Top Gun Manufacturer but that is solely based on popularity, not quality.  Do we even want to give popularity a weight in this ranking?

Kel-Tec is another good example for defining our criteria.  Amazingly innovative and daring, actually creating, or spotlighting an existing niche, that is then jumped on by more established companies.

Great topic here...might come up with a DRTV Rating System 



 

[Hazcat]

Not only are their several tiers, it might be viewed as different aisles on the same tier.

For instance.   Savage may make a rifle as rugged, dependable and close to as accurate as a Weatherby.

Based upon practical criteria, they both could be top tier, but Savage is not in the same class as Weatherby in terms of finish.

So, we might have something like   Top Tier Standard (Savage), Top Tier Exclusive (Weatherby) and Top Tier Custom ( Les Bear)

I never think of Savage as a Top Gun Manufacturer but that is solely based on popularity, not quality.  Do we even want to give popularity a weight in this ranking?

Kel-Tec is another good example for defining our criteria.  Amazingly innovative and daring, actually creating, or spotlighting an existing niche, that is then jumped on by more established companies.

Great topic here...might come up with a DRTV Rating System 



 

I think you're way wrong there, Solus.  Savage is much more accurate than Weatherby.

[tombogan03884]

Not only are their several tiers, it might be viewed as different aisles on the same tier.

For instance.   Savage may make a rifle as rugged, dependable and close to as accurate as a Weatherby.

Based upon practical criteria, they both could be top tier, but Savage is not in the same class as Weatherby in terms of finish.

So, we might have something like   Top Tier Standard (Savage), Top Tier Exclusive (Weatherby) and Top Tier Custom ( Les Bear)

I never think of Savage as a Top Gun Manufacturer but that is solely based on popularity, not quality.  Do we even want to give popularity a weight in this ranking?

Kel-Tec is another good example for defining our criteria.  Amazingly innovative and daring, actually creating, or spotlighting an existing niche, that is then jumped on by more established companies.

Great topic here...might come up with a DRTV Rating System  

It would be a fun discussion, but we would never agree.
For example, Bafsu and I seem to disagree on the priority of workmanship versus innovation.
Another thing, the OP was about the "Manufacturers", not necessarily just their product, with that in mind we should be considering things like management, customer service, and responsiveness to the desires of the market as well as purely product related items.
Truth is though, few of us give a crap about any of that as long as we are happy with the new blaster.