Pincus on open carry

[fullautovalmet76]

...you will not change me.  And if you come to a class I am instructing in you will not win the debate.

I'm not really worried about that.

[Solus]

M58,
I disagree with you and Rob. I do not believe it is wrong to mix the First Amendment with the Second Amendment.

I don't think Rob or M58 is saying it is wrong....just that it might not be the best option if you are truly concerned about being able to survive an armed attack.

As has been said, you are wearing a "shoot me first" sign,  you are much easier for the bad guy to deal with as he will know who he to worry about, and you are at greater risk of having someone make a grab for your weapon..if only to run off with it.

There may be some deterrent value to open carry, but I would not bet my life on it...particularly if there are multiple bad guys....you will be out gunned and they will have the initiative.   

[fullautovalmet76]

......As has been said, you are wearing a "shoot me first" sign,  you are much easier for the bad guy to deal with as he will know who he to worry about,......

This is the one argument against OC I find somewhat far fetched. In theory it can happen but I'm really wondering if that is how it will play out. It makes a few assumptions: 1. A person is really a target by OC. 2. It assumes the perps are better trained, faster, more lucky than the victim. 3. It assumes the victim is in condition white.

I just don't think you can get there from here with those assumptions. And let's play the odds: am I really at greater risk of being shot first, let alone shot, because I OC as opposed to CC or no-carry? You can make the argument in theory but it just doesn't play out against data we have from states like AZ or VT that have had OC for years.

However, the downside to OC I can readily see is if I'm in a physical altercation. The perp just may go after my gun. If I'm not wearing a holster like the Safariland ALS type, he might be able to wrestle that away from me. And I would be in big trouble then.

I took a class from Rob a couple of years ago and OC didn't come up in the class. But he was constantly reminding us about the ambush, which I think is the most common type of confrontation on the street. I know from my own rational view point that if I was a perp I would not want to roll the dice with someone I knew had a weapon. I want to go after softer targets.

[tombogan03884]

I agree with FA. The "shoot me first" stuff is BS unless it's an act of terrorism and those are damned unlikely.
A robber that sees you carrying a gun is going to go find some one else to bother. They are looking for easy money, not a gun battle.

[MikeBjerum]

Fullauto,

Why do you want to become the focus of everyone's attention when ever you go out to eat, go for a walk, go shopping, etc?  Have you stopped to think that your pushing a visible firearm in a business may be the reason another gun free zone is created?  Have you ever stopped to think of the fuel you add to the anti's fire by flaunting your protected Right as opposed to after a peaceful demonstration you and your friends let the media know how many guns were on site and how nobody was harmed or even knew they were there?

In a self defense situation, why do you want the "bad guy" to know you are armed prior to your acting in self defense?  Under the number one rule of use of a firearm for self defense, you must be an unwilling participant, why do you want to expose a weapon that may assure that the fight will be a gun fight?  Why do you want to single yourself out as the person that may be ambushed and have your tool removed from you?  Why do you want perps prepared to deal with you before you even know they are perps?

Even if the fact you are carrying has slipped past the bad guy, why do you want everyone else in the area to know that you have a defensive tool available?  Do you really want them forcing your hand before you are ready to act?

The best way for me to make sure that I am an unwilling participant, that no lesser force will do, and that I could have a means of escape, and to a certain level that I am not pushed to fearing for my life, is for me to not let the bad guys or anyone else that is not prepared know that I have the tools and ability to stop this situation.  I do not want a non-deadly situation to become a deadly situation because a bad guy spots my tool on my body.  I do not want my ability to take my time to assess the situation and act in what I feel is the best way taken away from me because others know in advance some of my options.  I do not want anything that will draw undue attention to me in a potentially deadly situation.

If I am in a C-Store with five other people and someone pulls a gun on the clerk I have no reason to respond with deadly force.  If the clerk hands over money and the robber leaves that it a good thing.  If the bad guy shoots the clerk, starts waving the gun at the rest of us or aims at me, I will take my best opportunity to shoot if given a chance.  However, if everything is going smoothly in the robbery and the bad guy spots my gun on me and starts shooting people, was I a part of the solution or the cause of the deaths?  If we are standing there and someone spots my gun and reacts, either thinking I can help or that I am another bad guy, am I prepared to react fast enough in the forced fight?

Exposing our tools of self defense in as a political statement in a demonstration takes away the ability to show clearly that we are no different than anyone else on the street.  It gets us labeled as fringe at best and whack jobs more commonly as we try to present our case.  However, by keeping them concealed and then revealing how many were there to make a point at the end lets them learn how normal and main street we are and that there is no reason to fear someone with a gun.  I compare this to exposing a person that fears dogs to either a pit bull or a lab.  If we want them to be a dog lover we get them with a nice gentle lab, so why not put them in the midst of a group of gun lovers that are secretly carrying?

Exposing our weapons in a self defense situation takes away every tactical advantage we had, and it limits the number of options we have in a potentially violent situation.  There is a comparison that many instructors use that if a carpenter has a hammer - every fastener will become a nail, so we must be careful when we chose to carry that we don't turn every fight into a gun fight.  Open carry will quickly narrow your options in choosing what the outcome of any given confrontation will be.  Do you really want to tell an officer or a jury that everything was going smoothly during the C-Store robbery until either the perp spotted your gun or the lady in line behind you screamed "why don't you use your gun and stop him?"

Nuff said.  You can see my point, and ignore if you chose.

P.S.

Haz, I fully understand.  When it is 100+ and 95% humidity every bit of clothing becomes smaller and stickier.  It sure would be nice to just put on the CR Speed rigs rather than packing all that steel and leather inside the pants and pockets.

[Sponsor]

[MikeBjerum]

One thought keep circling my little brain as I play on this thread and a few others in this room:

Notice how things have changed without RP around to monitor us?

[Solus]

I agree with FA. The "shoot me first" stuff is BS unless it's an act of terrorism and those are damned unlikely.
A robber that sees you carrying a gun is going to go find some one else to bother. They are looking for easy money, not a gun battle.

How many armed bank guards will be the first to be dealt with when the robbers make their move?

If you are spotted as open carrying, I doubt they will turn their attention to the teller and ignore you after they have dispatched the guard.

Yeah...this isn't likely, but it is more likely than a terrorist attack, and if your encounter will be by two armed assailants and they know in advance you are armed you have one big hole to climb out of just to have an equal chance.

Having my hand on my gun in my jacket pocket in that situation will give me a good chance of coming out alive where having your hand on your open carry gun can be a crime in many places, brandishing. 

We will probably never have occasion to have either of our theories confirmed or dis-proven (we hope) but I will take what I perceive to be even that small percentage of advantage.

[tombogan03884]

Glock sucks, if it isn't a .45 it isn't a real gun, open carry is bad,or, 1911 are junk, 9mm rules, open carry is the only way to go, it all amounts to the same thing, opinion, and we know what those are worth.

[Ichiban]

I don't have a problem with OC, but for me, CCW is for self defense while OC is more of a political statement, specially if done in an urban/suburban area.  YMMV.

[Solus]

Glock sucks, if it isn't a .45 it isn't a real gun, open carry is bad,or, 1911 are junk, 9mm rules, open carry is the only way to go, it all amounts to the same thing, opinion, and we know what those are worth.

Oh sure.....end the discussion by saying something that is true.....