147gr +P 9mm ammo, Thoughts?

[Majer]

TW, the 147 gr Subsonic round was chosen because of it's reputation of 1 shot stops in it's use by the Military Special Forces, However, they forgot to add in the fact that these rounds were being fired from suppressed weapons and only head shots were taken. On the street they failed miserably, when they bumped up the velocity they performed a little better but still lacked in stopping the threat.That is one of the reasons for a lot of PD's going t the larger .40S&W.

[fullautovalmet76]

I chose Winchester PDX1 147 gr. I read a bunch of research from Dr. Martin Fackler. His research (mucho summarization) revealed that penetration was right behind wound channel when it comes to selecting a caliber. Naturally, the 230 gr. 45 ACP was his first choice, but he did write the 147 gr. 9mm would be a good selection too.

I wonder for those who choose to carry +P/+P+ if they might be better off with a 180 gr. 40 cal if they want all of that velocity; just my opinion....

[twyacht]

Thanks Majer, So, a lighter bullet with a hotter charge, is better for the 9mm? I know it was always designed to be a faster round, just kicking around bullet evolution, and the old sterotypes.

In the September 2009 issue of American Rifleman magazine they compared these to ammo choices and both performed equally well in expansion through heavy clothing, wallboard, and plywood into a block of gelatin. The expansion for Critical Defense 147gr. +P was 0.548", 0.515", and 0.580". The Winchester 115gr +P load expanded to 0.567", 0.525", and 0.520". The penetration for Critical Defense 124+P was 5.77", 5.54", and 6.09".  Also the Critical Defense had a higher muzzle velocity (1123fps) and a higher muzzle energy (322 Ft-lbs.). The Winchester's velocity was 956fps. with a muzzle energy of 298Ft-lbs.

I know shot placement matters regardless of caliber. Even in my little Kel-Tec, .380, referencing the wetpack post, I can't imagine the results to be that different, with good carry ammo, especially at SD distances.

Thank you for the replies.  Like I posted, there is no real right answer. I'm sure a BG in my house at 4:00 in the morning, won't care, all he'll know is I have 16+1 of whoop ass pointed at him at reasonably close distances.

Whether it's 115gr., 124gr. or 147gr, +P or not, having the round capacity that most modern 9's have, and shot placement, will be an advantage.

I appreciate the insight.

[TAB]

there is no replacement for displacment.


 

[scott.ballard]

there is no replacement for displacment.


 

What about instantaneous interruption of the central nervous system?

[Sponsor]

[ericire12]

I think slow and heavy is more about relating the effectiveness of larger calibers (.45 acp) over a faster bullet in a smaller caliber(9mm, 5.7, etc ). Think diameter not weight. The heavy 9mm is still the same diameter as the light 9mm. Penetration is going to be about the same (give or take)... the biggest deciding factors (IMO) are going to be two things... 1) which ammo gives the most energy. 2) which ammo will give the best expansion. All things being equal (bonded bullets + same barrel length) usually the 147 gr 9mm tend to deliver less energy then the lighter faster loads (although too light a bullet will begin to yield diminishing results - 124 gr is usually the sweet spot). You need to do your research with regards to expansion... Too fast or too slow can yield poor results in this category. 




*The irony of this debate is that we would all prefer a .223 rifle bullet (way lighter and way faster) any day of the week.

[Solus]

Back when the FBI standards were set, I believe that the problem with existing high speed, low weight handgun rounds was that they expanded to quickly or fragmented, both of which prevented the penetration needed for a decisive stop.

With the developments in ammo design since then these problems have been reduced if not eliminated, so the lighter high speed rounds can provide the expansion and weight retention to allow effective penetration.

 

[scott.ballard]

Hit by a Mack Truck at 60 mph or 3 Toyota Carollas at 60 mph has pretty much the same effect.  The difference being the Mack Truck takes up more space than the 3 Carollas.

The main focus should be on hitting the aggressor(s) with projectiles placed in such a manner that you cause i) immediate cessation of nerve impulse transmission, ii) interrupt/deplete blood supply to the point of failure, and/or iii) destroy the aggressor's structural support.  Any reputable hollow point, when delivered in a series, will do the job if the shot is placed correctly.  The main variable being how long it takes that particular individual to succumb to the retaliatory strikes.

I have not seen, or heard of, any person who was shot call for a time out to complain that the bullets they were hit with were only 115 grains instead of 230. 

Hopefully we all train to shoot until the threat ceases to be a threat.  There is no wonder projectile for a handgun.  Regardless of the load you will need to place your shots well and continue to do so until the aggressor(s) stops doing whatever it is you want him/her/them to stop doing.

Load a quality hollow point from a reputable manufacturer and here are the things you need to be concerned about:

Shot placement

Shot Placement

Shot Placement.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do our research.  What I'm suggesting is that when the copper & lead hit the meat, multiple projectiles placed into the upper thoracic cavity or central nervous system interruption are going to matter the most.

Ultimately if you find something that works for you then use it.  If you like a certain training method, use it. Zipper drill over Tri-Tap?  Who cares as long as you can do it successfully every time.  Whatever you do, train until you can't do it wrong.

Stay Safe,

[DonWorsham]

Any reputable hollow point, when delivered in a series, will do the job if the shot is placed correctly.  .  Regardless of the load you will need to place your shots well and continue to do so until the aggressor(s) stops
Load a quality hollow point from a reputable manufacturer

Yep, nuff said.