Episode 163

[JdePietro]

Michael, Michael, Michael...

At the beginning of your podcast you were all beside yourself because some people think cowboy shooting is a costume party. Five minutes later you start calling out the racegun guys as phonies. I with there was a shaking head smiley because it would indeed be appropriate.

Raceguns most oftenly take the form of 2011's. Cowboy guns are most often times a SA Colt design. 2011's are just as capable as any other semi auto as a self defense piece, maybe even more so than some. I'll beit they tend to hang all sorts a parts on the firearm for specific course use but there is no way on the Gods green earth that I would want to work the opisite side of the muzzle of these guys and their guns.

IMHO SA Colts are one absolete and two not the best choice from that era. The Scholfields and top break S&W could actually be reloaded with some speed. In everday life I think the use of a SA Colt styled pistol as a self defense piece is a poor one, but does my opinion really matter? I don't think so because there are pleanty of people who run SA Colts faster than Scholfields and Top breaks. I just see the two issues you brought up as having an extreme parrallel. You defended one specialty gun and ripped another.

I do aggree that the emphasis aught be on production guns, but I wouldn't say it is because the race guns are unusable in everyday events, but rather because I think the majority of the gun culture can better utilize the techno benefit that will come from a strong production gun competition.

Lastly you have not made mention that the Midwest CMMG 3 gun challenge Heavy Metal Division was won once again by a SAI M1A NM. Take that you FAL loving racegun basher

 

[Michael Bane]

LOL! Great post! Okay, lemme better define myself...whenever I put "raceguns" — that is, guns designed/modified for specificcompetition and including competition-specific accessories such as compensators/extreme muzzle breaks, optical sights, barricade "wings," etc. — on TV, people race...no, SPRINT!...for the remote control. There is ZERO viewer interest in competition-modified guns; ZERO firearms industry interest in same and pretty much zero interest in "professional" shooters. Heck, most shooters don't particularly care about the open/unlimited categories. As a veteran competitor myself, it sorta puts me in an odd position...I want to promote competition, but I need to do it in a way that keeps me employed.

I shot Limited with an STI Edge .40 S&W and it was the single best out-of-the-box gun I've ever owned...if there was one gun left in the world and it was an Edge, I'd be good to go (yeah, I'd rather have a 9mm or a .45 than a .40, but I'd go with the .40). I'd have to say the same thing about an SA, whether a Ruger or a Colt. Having gone through 2 Gunsite single action self-defense classes, I'd feel pretty comfortable with that as my primary self-defense gun. I TOTALLY agree with you on the superiority of the Model 3 system...I have 2 Uberti 3-1/2 inchers in .44 Russian, and with the right "speedloaders" they'd outperform a swing-out cylinder any day.

So yeppers, I wouldn't want to stand in front of a racegun of any kind, either, and my objections are the same as yours...while they advance technology, they actually harm the sport by making it both less appealing and less accessible to the larger body of shooters...

Michael B

[JdePietro]

Wow Mike I had no idea you'd answer my post. 

Honestly I'm with you on how intersting the race guns are. Cowboy stuff doesn't do it with me either but who am I to question? I think you do a great job with the lineup.

I was only bustin you rocks over beating on one sport after defending a very similar sport is all.

PS.    I shot a topbreak after my clubs local Cowboy event. If I could find a costume that would completely conceal my identity from my tactical 3 gun buddies. I'd totally run a topbreak.

Keep doing what you do Mr. Bane

[bbbean]

Oh bah humbug! When the open guys rip through a Steel Challenge course at blazing speed, it gets attention. Whenever I tell people I shoot competitively, they always mention seeing JJ or Max or some of those guys burn through a course on TV.

And fwiw, plenty of open shooters take the time to burn through matches with production guns, single stacks, and even the occasional L-10 national.

While I understand that the average shooter (i.e. someone who plinks a little and probably isn't a serious competitor or SD expert) needs a good out of the box gun, I think it's a mistake to obsess on out of the box guns or insist that they are what every pro should use.

The best shooters throughout history have sought out the state of the art guns for their era and have customized them for their personal use. There really isn't a lot of difference between buying a compact 1911 and putting night sights on it for a carry gun or building a 2011 up from the ground with wings, optics, compensators, and extended basepads for Bianchi or USPSA. In each case, you're simply using the best tool for the job. And I'm having an awfully hard time figuring out how dressing up like movie cowboys and shooting obsolete technology in a temporary ghost town is somehow going to make you a better shooter than the guys at the top of the Bianchi and USPSA ladder.

God knows other athletes either customize their gear or have gear manufactured to their specs. Do you think Tiger Woods' putter is any less tricked out than Max Michel's open blaster?   

FWIW, I'm not an open shooter. I'm primarily a single stack and limited shooter. But it irks me to see someone who claims to support the shooting sports run down an entire division and dismiss some of the best shooters in the world as one trick ponies. Automotive sports manage to accommodate everything from top fuel dragsters to dirt track stock cars to 4X4 mud bogs. The success of one branch doesn't depend on the failure of another. Anti-gunners already do a fine job of running down our sport and making it harder to recruit new competitors. We don't need to make their job easier by running each other down.     

[tombogan03884]

BBBean, posted :
"The best shooters throughout history have sought out the state of the art guns for their era "
That is not exactly true. For an example Wild Bill Hickok relied on a pair of Colt "Navy" revolvers well in to the era of Cartridge pistols.

Since you obviously missed MB's point, I will attempt to explain it.
Ordinary folks who work for a living, have bills, and kids, will most likely not be able to afford a race gun.
If they do go to watch a match, they only go once, because unless you are actually shooting most people find the competitions to be boring as hell.
With CAS however, even the spectators can participate in "returning to a bygone era". most any one can afford out of the box guns for this sport and even folks who don't give a sh!t about guns can enjoy the food, and vendors.
Rimfire challenge is another competition that, unlike IDPA or IPSC actually draws NEW shooters, since any one can afford a couple of .22's that will make them competitive out of the box, (although it isn't exactly a "spectator " sport either.).
I will use personal experience as an example, I'm a gun nut, I lust for different guns, I read about them, I even participated in the manufacture of several thousand of them.
T/C Arms used to put on a black powder shoot every year, I went once stayed for 20 minutes and had enough, if it had not been for the coffee I would have nothing good to say about it.
In fact, the boredom I endured permanently soured me on black powder shooting.

[Sponsor]

[bbbean]

Since you obviously missed MB's point, I will attempt to explain it.
Ordinary folks who work for a living, have bills, and kids, will most likely not be able to afford a race gun.
If they do go to watch a match, they only go once, because unless you are actually shooting most people find the competitions to be boring as hell.
With CAS however, even the spectators can participate in "returning to a bygone era". most any one can afford out of the box guns for this sport and even folks who don't give a sh!t about guns can enjoy the food, and vendors.
Rimfire challenge is another competition that, unlike IDPA or IPSC actually draws NEW shooters, since any one can afford a couple of .22's that will make them competitive out of the box, (although it isn't exactly a "spectator " sport either.).
I will use personal experience as an example, I'm a gun nut, I lust for different guns, I read about them, I even participated in the manufacture of several thousand of them.
T/C Arms used to put on a black powder shoot every year, I went once stayed for 20 minutes and had enough, if it had not been for the coffee I would have nothing good to say about it.
In fact, the boredom I endured permanently soured me on black powder shooting.

Not every sport is for everybody. I love USPSA and Steel Challenge, but IDPA just annoys me and CAS looks silly to my taste. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with those sports or that I'm somehow superior for preferring USPSA. I'd never suggest IDPA was "over" just because it's not my sport of choice. There's a reason Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors!

As for affordability, lets be honest. They don't give CAS guns away, and the clothes, the travel, the props, etc. all cost $$$. If you are a serious competitor in ANY shooting sport, you're going to spend some money. If you want an inexpensive sport, take up frisbee golf or chess. And since when was "being instantly affordable to a rank beginner with a limited budget" the criterion for evaluating a sport? God knows Michael's favorite ARs and New Gen battle rifles are "over" if affordability is the criteria. How many guys do you see shooting 3 gun or any serious rifle competition with a $500 rifle?

FWIW, I can't tell you the last time I shot a USPSA match that didn't have several new shooters in attendance. A $400 Glock or M&P gives you perfectly good gear to shoot production or Lim-10, and a trigger job and extended mag puts you in the running for Limited. Interestingly, a lot of beginner shooters get the bug and start putting optics and compensators on their production and limited guns to shoot open after a year or two. I guess they didn't get the memo that open is over and they are supposed to leave their guns box stock.

And I'm still struggling with how Michael can rant for three podcasts in a row about how open guns and open shooters are over, and then in the next breath talk about his good friend JJ Recaza or talk about putting optics and compensators on $3000 rifles to make them competitive or better suited for specific purposes.

A race gun is just a gun that's customized for a particular sport, and an open shooter is just a guy who likes to shoot race guns. What's so wrong with that?

[tombogan03884]

BBBean, First off, I'm not saying your facts are wrong . What I am disagreeing with is your interpretation of them.
I will grant that nearly every shooting competition that happens includes "new Shooters".
However, I will bet you money, (not much, rents coming up  ) that every single one of them was brought in by another avid shooter. Those people will be drawn in to at least try competing any way just by their attraction to firearms.
The people that the various competitions have to reach, if they are to become profitable  (ala NASCAR ) are the vast majority who have no connection at all with the "gun culture", City dwellers who have been conditioned to assume that "all guns are for is killing, and that is always bad."
Unfortunately, pure "skill based" competition, such as High power Rifle,or IPSC, may bring a rush to the SHOOTER, They are boring as crap to people who just come to watch, ( referring to new comers, not "pro's " )
But, if you add some entertainment value, as with CAS, you attract a far greater number of people who's original focus is NOT the "guns", but maybe the food, or the clothes. In other words, by adding the period clothes and Alias's you increase the "entertainment Value" = profitability for Organizers, it also gets the pro gun message out to a far wider audience, rather than just preaching to the choir like we do here.
I have to agree about CAS guns     But that in itself is an indication of the fairly rapid growth of the sport. I can remember going to gun stores and not seeing a single SA revolver, or only .22's, and around here any way, my Dad is the only person I new, until the last few years, who owned a lever action rifle that was NOT a 30/30 ,(Win or Marlin)
and I was under the impression that calibers such as 32/20, 44/40, and .45 Colt were not even sold any more, due to lack of interest.
That's a bit different now, and it's entirely due to CAS. (And yes, I to hesitate to dress in the period clothing, but it is like a Renaissance Faire, all in good fun )

[ratcatcher55]

The number of un-modified pistols or revolvers owned by Michael Bane in the last 10 years

A) Zero

B) None of the above.

Pick A

Bane supports the families of a dozen gunsmiths. He probably is the source of several college educations.
Stock firearm and Michael Bane can not be used in the same sentence with out adding LAUGH OUT LOUD

[tbug]

And you get to play Cowboys & Indians and sometime soon Cowboys & Mooslims & sometime soon Cowboys & Messkins ect.ect.ect. Not to forget our fearless leader If I havent offended you yet don't worry we will get there sooner or later and sometime soon Cowboys & Polita$$holes
Our future looks bright to say the least a target rich enviorment.  YMMV w/my spelling

[tombogan03884]

The number of un-modified pistols or revolvers owned by Michael Bane in the last 10 years

A) Zero

B) None of the above.

Pick A

Bane supports the families of a dozen gunsmiths. He probably is the source of several college educations.
Stock firearm and Michael Bane can not be used in the same sentence with out adding LAUGH OUT LOUD

Magna ported Charter Arms, The work cost more than the gun, especially if you include shipping and transfer fee's,
Then of course there is the notorious Serbu, 12Ga. pocket pistol,
That's just plain ADDICTION right there 

And you get to play Cowboys & Indians and sometime soon Cowboys & Mooslims & sometime soon Cowboys & Messkins ect.ect.ect. Not to forget our fearless leader If I havent offended you yet don't worry we will get there sooner or later and sometime soon Cowboys & Polita$$holes
Our future looks bright to say the least a target rich enviorment.  YMMV w/my spelling

That's the one I'm expecting.