AR on weapons of the Chosin Few

[tombogan03884]

This months American Rifleman has an interesting article about the small arms used by American Forces, specifically in the retreat from Chosin Res. although they were used through out that conflict.
I don't want to spoil it for any one but the M-2 carbine was the least popular of them all. It was described as underpowered and unreliable.
Sorry 2How  

To be fair, these opinions were formed in weather that included temps of as much as 40 degree's below zero, a bit different from what you experienced.

[fightingquaker13]

Plus they were shooting through the padded Chi-com winter clothing. Not body armor, but trying a 100 hard yard shot with an M2? Makes a glorified pistol worse. 30 yards in a jungle or house to house maybe. 100 yards plus in an ice bucket? I'd sure as hell have rather had an AK or an M-14 or a Garand than an M-16 in that environment myself. Forget the M1 or M2.
FQ13

[m25operator]

Ineffective I will grant, it was the bullet not the rifle or even the caliber, GI ball will totally penetrate a creosote power pole, there in lies the problem, easy in, easy out, not big enough to make a large wound channel, not fast enough for hydro static shock, I still think a Hornady XTP or their new extreme defense bullet would forever change this caliber.

[tombogan03884]

Ineffective I will grant, it was the bullet not the rifle or even the caliber, GI ball will totally penetrate a creosote power pole, there in lies the problem, easy in, easy out, not big enough to make a large wound channel, not fast enough for hydro static shock, I still think a Hornady XTP or their new extreme defense bullet would forever change this caliber.

Oh, heck yes, especially if it was a +P load

[Hazcat]

30 carbine is the most under 'explored' load that I know.  I love the carbine and wish some one would look into load development.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Plus they were shooting through the padded Chi-com winter clothing. Not body armor, but trying a 100 hard yard shot with an M2? Makes a glorified pistol worse. 30 yards in a jungle or house to house maybe. 100 yards plus in an ice bucket? I'd sure as hell have rather had an AK or an M-14 or a Garand than an M-16 in that environment myself. Forget the M1 or M2.
FQ13

FQ, If you can find me an authentic, un Photo shopped picture of a US service member using an M 16 in any year starting with a 5 I will vote Dem.

30 carbine is the most under 'explored' load that I know.  I love the carbine and wish some one would look into load development.

Agree completely, the gun is great, it's the round that is inadequate.

[fightingquaker13]

FQ, If you can find me an authentic, un Photo shopped picture of a US service member using an M 16 in any year starting with a 5 I will vote Dem.

Agree completely, the gun is great, it's the round that is inadequate.

Just offering modern comparisons Tom. Frankly, I'd have rather had a Winchester 30-30 in that Charlie Fox Trot than an M-2.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

Just offering modern comparisons Tom. Frankly, I'd have rather had a Winchester 30-30 in that Charlie Fox Trot than an M-2.
FQ13

I understand now, I thought my reference to the NRA magazine had confused you.

Now for the fun part, arguing about guns  

I really doubt that the lever action would have performed much better, better caliber, but much lower capacity, and back in those days no one really thought about -40 degree temps when they designed a gun except maybe the Soviets.
It seems to me that the only advantage the lever gun would have would be extra leverage when you were trying to force the frozen action, and that is just as likely to cause breakage or other damage, the article notes that troops even had to pee on the BAR to thaw it out enough to function.
My Dad also has told me that the following winter it was necessary to fire the machine guns every so often (model `1917 water cooled .30's  ) so the water in the barrel jacket would not freeze and split it, that was with anti freeze mixed in.

[fightingquaker13]

Sad to say, that is one more example of where the Moisin would be the superior weapon. If nothing else, it would go bang and hit more or less where you aimed it. Better a 5 round bolt rifle than an underpowered FA carbine that may or may not go BANG.
FQ13  Who thinks the Finns and Russians might have known what works in those conditions.

[tombogan03884]

Can't fault the military or the designers though.
When these weapons were designed the focus was on Europe, North Africa, and the Pacific Islands, who in their right mind would even think of putting troops in -40 temps ?
Newer weapons are tested for that type of cold as well as extremes of heat. It's one lesson that was not only learned, but remembered.